pinakidion.*

The Partners in the Gospel series of articles has stirred up controversy in the subculture formerly known as the ICoC. In them, it seems pretty clear that Kip is trying to justify a split with the ICoC.

I mentioned an article posted by Salt Lake asking to not be on any list because of their concerns over being divisive. It appears that similar sentiments are voiced in Central America, especially in regards to the former ICoC churches in Honduras.

I say similar because Hector Cardona comments about being considered ‘divisive’. William Ellis, the missionary keeping the blog exhorts Hector to take the same view as the Salt Lake church.

On the icmea.org website, an official publication dated November 10, 2006 explains the situation with San Pedro Sula and the Honduran churches. Don’t worry if your Spanish is rusty, it is essentially the same letter written by LA in regards to the new LA church, including the history of Kip’s sabbatical and the two letters written to him last year. Only the names and locations are different. Mexican and Central American churches are warned to cut off all contact with Hector and Kip’s churches.

No surprise that the letter is basically the same as the HQ for Mexican and Central American mission work is where?
LA.

Another, more lengthy piece is more deliberate and detailed in addressing Kip’s claims. I actually met the author of this document, named Aurturo (cannot spell last name). He has planted churches throughout Mexico by creating small Bible schools. Pretty creative, eh?

I mention this because the battles against Kip are now being waged on more fronts:

Hawaii - Gordon and LA Elders.
Central and South America - LA
Europe and Russia - Sean Wooten sent by Boston
Midwest US - Steve Staten
SE Asia - Phil Lam and Scott Green (Kip went to Vietnam and other churches two years ago and was providing financial assistance to them. I do not know if that assistance is still being accepted.)
Throughout the US - Gordon, that I know of. He mentioned a trip to Reno and other places.

I would guess that all these battles is keeping Kip pretty busy. No new articles, no posted sermons, etc. This definitely isn’t the CoC response he got 20 - 30 years ago. These guys are a whole lot more coordinated in their fight.

It’s simple, throw frozen hot dogs.

How people come up with this stuff amazes me.

As a rule, I generally don’t discuss baptism. The main reason is that such discussion sways no one. Baptism ties into salvation, and no Christian wants to discuss why they may not be saved. Ultimately, it usually comes down to the question, “Do you think I’m going to Hell because I wasn’t baptized like you?” On the other side, the question comes down to “Why don’t you follow the simple teaching of the New Testament?” The first question hits the emotional issue that only CoC people (and their derivatives) are saved. The second question hits the emotional issue that only CoC people can correctly divine the Word of God.

Needless to say, this captivates my interest like watching mold spores grow. It just gets uglier over time.

But, seeing as there is a posting lull here and seeing how a pretty thoughtful link was provided by Bobber, I figured, why not? I may regret it, but who knows? The folks around here are a pretty thoughtful bunch - maybe this discussion will be different. Granted, most folks here are CoC or their descendants, so it may be preaching to the choir.

The only ground rules I propose are these:

1. No Greek. I took two years and I do not feel qualified to argue various English translations of Greek words. This is an arguing over words and not useful.
2. Ask questions without making it personal. For example, do not ask, “Do you think I’m not saved?”. However, it is a fair question, “are those not immersed in water saved?” as long as it doesn’t lead into, “you know I wasn’t immersed…”
3. If you do not know, say that you do not know. It is acceptable to not know everything. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
4. Do not invalidate an argument because enough Scripture is not quoted in presenting that argument. Asking for clarifying Scriptures is needed - I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about dismissing a viewpoint because Scripture wasn’t quoted in every step. If you believe that a point was made that is outside of the Bible, ask for a Scripture.
5. Enjoy the discussion. If you’re not enjoying it, take a break. There is enough evil in the world to battle that we do not have to devour each other. This applies especially to me.

Joel Garver begins with thoughts about salvation as an ongoing process. In response, I would say that salvation is a journey. Like any journey, it requires continued effort and movement. The end of the journey is God’s Judgment and ultimately Heaven. Like all journeys, it also has a starting point. I would consider baptism a starting point on that journey. I agree that the sequence, “Hear, Believe, Repent, Confess, etc.” usually presented is arbitrary. It may be useful as a teaching tool to help someone come to faith, but like any other tool, it needs to be seen as a man-made device, and not a creed. I also agree that the Spirit works on those that believe and do not believe. A person that hears the Word of God, like the parable of the soils, can have various reactions. The Word of God is powerful enough to encourage the soul to begin the journey of faith and encourage another to persevere at any stage of their own journey. I think of the proverb that the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Faith in trusting in God and His promises made through His Son, the Christ and His Word, the Bible. Before a person is saved, he or she must come to faith, drawn by the Spirit. Once a person is saved, they must persevere in that faith. Baptism is one of those promises - through baptism the promise of the Holy Spirit and a new life with Christ are offered. When Joel discusses belief before, during, or after baptism in point 4, it strikes me as a non sequitur. Belief is not what saves, even the demons have belief. How can a person trust in baptism retroactively? If a person is baptized it has to be for a reason, even if it is, “because I was told to by the priest”. Baptism is the claim of a promise, not a theological proposition. The disagreement, as I understand it, deals with understanding what is promised.

Thoughts?

From 62 to 26 overnight,

From 62 to 8 in two days.

Someone decided to build a six-axis mouse for use in 3D modeling. From a math perspective, it’s a three axis mouse, x,y,z or horizontal, vertical, and depth, respectively. The writer of the article counts the x axis twice, once for “left” and again for “right”, the y axis twice (up and down) and the z axis twice (near and far).

Anyway, after using three old computer mice, here is his final work.

He mentions that the math was “mind-bending”, but I think the entire project was mind-bending, thus the title.

However, I do think he is right that it’s a good model for the next PS4/XBOX3/NINTENDO YU? platform.

Fearlessly poised, eagle eyes magnetically

Fasten mine to yours;

In a homemade gill net I am caught in your grey sea depths-

Wise as dolphins, youth vibrantly pours forth,

Soundless waves echo, bounce and gyrate off ocean floor

Ping-ponging their way along a pinball trail-

As your spirit dives into empty air.

Your lithe body paints a freestyle dive on an empty air molecule canvas-

Each skin cell sheds cleanly, recording your energetic pulls at air strands.

I catch you

A smile lurks and quirks.

Again my eyes are fastened to your intense ones

And find that it is

Myself

who is captive to

your eagle eyes

Jasper is finally weaned onto regular milk.  Both he and mom survived along with a few tears and help from Jasper’s Dad!

Now, he is a regular milk and bread man, just like Granpa Pranis.

Lately he has enjoyed exploring the world of food as he painted himself in cereal.

Thomas Quasthoff is a great baritone singer. My son and I watched him on the ARTS channel this morning. I wasn’t in the room watching the performance at first - I heard beautiful, clearly enunciated singing in a booming baritone. That’s hard to do. Pavarotti was the last one I knew of.

When I saw the performance, though, I was struck by his appearance. He was a thalidomide baby.

I read this interview and thought that this attitude is the one I want our son to have.

More later.

I hope that everyone has a great holiday season. I plan to have a great time. Four days off is a good thing for me. Avoiding Black Friday is the highlight of my time off.

We are visiting friends houses almost every night this week. Tuesday was a dinner with some friends. Wednesday is pumpkin pie with a couple that live very closeby. Thursday will be Thanksgiving with the family that hosted my wife up until we got married. A good time.

I also look forward to the annual Turkey Bowl. It’s a full contact block, tag-to-down footbal game played with whomever arrives by 9am. Some years, it’s played in ice and snow. This year, it will be about 50 degrees at game time.

As this time of year approaches, I naturally think about the things for which I am thankful. This year is no exception. As always, I am thankful for God - He puts up with a great deal from me. I am also thankful for my wife who also puts up with a great deal from me. I am joyful that our son continues to be a happy boy. (He is still scared of mrtool for some reason, but I am hopeful that will change.) I am grateful for my online and offline friends. I appreciate how much they truly give to my life. Bobber always has a good and thoughtful word. When I visit St. Louis again, I intend to look you up - we don’t have to go to Chik-Fil-A. Alan is always a welcome sight as well. I do not know if I’ll ever get to ATL again, but if I do, expect an email. Of course mrtool, my long-suffering roommate is a great friend - I enjoy our Fridays. Salguod is always thougtful and I appreciate his site and commentary here. I keep intending to call you, but never remember to. I know I sound quite a bit different on the phone than I do online. Thank you for stopping by and your support and emails. I am also grateful for Rock, my cousin, and Capteucalyptus, my life-long chum. I will be in NC this spring after the second baby is born. I hope both of you get to meet my children. Milly and daughter also pop by from time to time and I am glad they are here. Milly’s description of chickeny-goodness can get me through a tough day. Daughter’s perspective is helpful, especially as I am prone to male-centered thinking. (Male-centered thinking tends to believe that the solution with the fewest variables is best and it takes every opportunity to oversimplify the number of variables to less than four.) I cannot forget TTK: thank you for all the emails and the well-wishes. I still pray for you and your husband every day. I would be remiss if I did not mention Kurt. Dude, the videos and emails are great. Keep them coming. If there are others I have forgotten, my deep apologies.

I am also grateful for my family on both sides. My wife’s sister always gives us thoughtful gifts, espcially music from here. I am grateful for my mother-in-law for her tremendous patience and wisdom. I am grateful for my father-in-law who made a CD for our son as well as visited us for his first birthday. Thanks to his gift early in our marriage, our financial circustances are in a better place. I am grateful for my own parents who have given so much to us. I wish we were not separated by half a country so that you could see your grandson whenever you wished. Thanks to my Dad’s purchase of the Catera, I have not been burdened with a car that is ill suited for the midwest. Thanks to my mother, we are able to get special things for our son. Of course, I am always thankful for my brother who is always there for me.

I had a friend in Chapel Hill once tell me that I had an old soul. It is true, I’m afraid. I think I have felt like an old man since my 20s. When I was growing up, I did not live or think this way and I miss that person terribly some days. However, I am grateful for the circumstances that lead to the development of my aged soul. It’s the best way I can state that I am grateful for a nervous breakdown - thanks to that dramatic event, I took my own life more seriously and thoughtfully. I did not destroy myself or destroy more people than I already had at that point.

I am grateful for the real second life I’ve been able to have here in the midwest. Thanks to what many considered a very bad decision, I feel more free than I have in a long time. In my quest for inner peace, moving here has been the greatest act of providence God has given to me.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. I truly hope you have a blessed holiday.

My little alcove of modern townhomes in one of the older sections of this town make it a popular stop for JW & LDS missionaries. I have two copies of the Book of Mormon, one was published in 1899, the other a few years ago. LDS missionaries love to look at the old one. JW missionaries find it interesting as well, but for different reasons.

The watchtower folks have decided that they are leaving flyers is better than conversations. I only make a note of the latest one because of the headline:

THE END OF FALSE RELIGION

Considering my recent posts, I considered it ironic.

More later.

I think I need to redo some of the Lenga traits. I originally had the power trait adding to the amount of Mana. That doesn’t work well. Instead, I propose this:

Tahares suffers penalities to TN and increase to mana ceiling. They cannot purchase the trait that provides bonuses to TN.

Paucalus suffers penalities to mana cieling and bonuses to TN. They cannot buy trait that increases mana ceiling.

The power trait will not increase the multiplier to compute mana for a spellcaster.

Blogged with Flock

How would you handle a trait type spell, like Growth (Trait: Tall), which increases the size of a character by one size level?
-Nightmask1

I hadn’t done this one yet, so here is the off-the-cuff idea:

Physical Growth - Earth Spell - TN 15 Cost 2
Duration: 30 sec per Skill Level
Range: 1 meter
Lenga Translation: (dictionary on another computer)

Narrative:
The subject of this spell doubles in size and increases their weight eightfold. The effect lasts only a few minutes. Clothing and nonmagical equipment increase proportionately in size as well. Magical items do not change size, as such this spell will not function on creatures wearing magical armor.

Game terms:
The subject of the spell increases one level on the size chart. They gain the temporary benefits of +2 STR and +1 LIF. Melee weapons gain an additional dice of damage and suffer -1 Init penalty for the duration of the spell. Penalties toward the TN for distance and target moving apply and are cumulative. The intended target must be in the line of sight for the spell to function.

Notes:
This spell cannot be used to crush the target in a confined space. If the target is wearing magical armor, the spell will fail. Use the Effect Number to find the greatest consequence on the Spell Failure table.

Meta:
(Shape) Double the cost for double the size increment and associates benefits, the spell cannot be used to ‘triple’ a creature’s size, it only works in factors of two.

(Shape) Double the cost for moving up one or down one step on the time chart to increase duration. (For example, by doubling the cost, the duration is 5 minutes per skill level)

(Control) One mana point can be spent to offset penalties for distance and target moving by one point.

Blogged with Flock

More jargon than the law allows, but a rough draft of what I’m doing with the computer project I mentioned earlier.

The screenshot below is just what my desktop looks like. Remember, it is a Pentium Pro 200Mhz computer. An old Gateway E3000 to be exact.

Okay, now that another UP post has been finished, it’s time to get down to real business.

How to Regain Control of a Spooked Camel

You know, this is useful information. I used to have a shorter version of this taped to my wall at work. (I still have the handy card, in case I win the lottery, stay here and wander a few miles away from civilized areas.

How Not to Do Origami

I actually learned origami to learn patience. I can do a fair job at most things. I used to be origami to be able to tell Luke 12 to my friends. (Purse, raven, lily, etc)

This origami, though, requires too much sugar consumption and way too much time. Even I have limits to what I’ll spend my time doing. (Many accuse me of having way too much time myself.)

Happy Thursday, more posts to follow this afternoon.

As I’ve mentioned before, Bruce Williams, lead evangelist of the LA Church, has offered to visit any church with questions about the Unity Proposal. This offer is free and available to anyone that desires it. He will not force a visit on anyone that does not wish one.

After hearing about these visits and reading about his work in South Korea, I was interested to hear what one of these visits was like. I pestered an online friend for an mp3 and the rest, is quite literally, history. At the end of this post will be my notes from the recording I received.

The sticking issue for me was an attempt to find out what he is actually telling people about the UP. As I continue to grapple with what is happening with the ICoC, I have resolved to act locally while thinking globally. I spent 2003-2005 trying to act globally and locally and it almost killed me physically, emotionally, and spiritually. My experience has shown me that positions about various issues pertaining to Henry’s Letter were firmly entrenched as early as March 2003. These positions vary quite a bit. Not surprisingly, many ‘reformers’ were and are as equally unyielding as the conservatives. The conclusion for me, has been to continue involvement locally. Despite hesitation and nervousness, I went to a small group leaders meeting to offer help. I decided ahead of time that I only wanted to help - I had no agenda.

But I digress. This is a post for what it’s worth about what I heard on the tape. I’m not going to email Bruce (again) or the nine (again) or anything else. Again, the notes will appear at the end.

Underlying Assumptions

The message was simply going through the UP with explanatory remarks followed by a question and answer at the end. The framework of the presentation appeared to be this:

• Humility is the key to our churches moving forward.

Some time was spent talking about the number of proposals and the mistakes of the past. Bruce remarked that the greatest sin of the LA church and leadership is general was the lack of respect for local leaderships. Decisions were made sometimes completely without input from a local church. Going forward, we should all respect each other.

A contrast was made between the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11 to the early church. More can be made about this comparison. I will only say that the founding of Babylon and the founding of the church may not be a relevant comparison. God scattered the church in Acts, but the reasons were quite different.

• We need to clearly state what we believe.

Two different reasons were given for this. One was the uncertainty amongst churches in the ICoC. The other is that we must define ourselves or we will be defined by others. I will say that the uncertainty about what we held as basic beliefs did occur. There are churches of the former ICoC that openly question baptism from the pulpit. However, most of the uncertainty came over practices, not doctrine. There is a huge difference between questioning practices and questioning doctrines. I do agree with Bruce, that asking questions is good, but that there is a time to make decisions about those questions. I probably disagree with Bruce that certain matters can be left undecided - every matter does not need an answer right now.

As to having others define the church, I’m not certain why this is a large problem. I see the point and I understand from church history that Christians had to defend ‘who they were not’ very early on. They were accused on being cannibals (eat the body and blood of Christ), atheism (no images of God in worship), and other things. It seems that Peter encountered unfair characterizations about himself and the church. His answer was to 1 Peter 2:12. Still, Paul says to be careful in our treatment of outsiders so that we can answer everyone. As such, I can understand why folks would want to have a statement of faith in writing.

• We need to function as a church community again.

The church community was explained on a local and global level. It is difficult to separate them in Bruce’s remarks. He did mention that references to “the church” in the NT almost always meant “the universal church” and not “the local church”. Aside from that, community required two key factors: supporting biblical patterns in the church and  creating a means of cooperation.

Supporting Biblical patterns is pretty broadly stated. Specifically, this broke down into discipling relationships, women instructing women, dating only Christians, and the interdependence of churches.

Great care was taken to explain that discipling relationships did not mean what we had before. As I have said before, and one of the questioners alluded to, without any significant training and change of practice, it is inevitable that the old manner of discipling relationships will return. A man can be cured of demons in his heart, but if it remains empty, they will return more powerfully than before. Still, wanting help and advice is a good thing. More on this later.

As far as women teaching women, I’m way out in left field on this one. A prophetess spoke to the entire church in Acts. Breaking it down to differentiate ’sharing’ vs. ‘teaching’ is downright time-wasting. Maybe I’m so much a part of this corrupt generation that allows women professors that I am desensitized to the dangers of women teaching men. My best professors were women. But that could go round and round forever. No mention of paid women staff was made. There wasn’t even a lament of the general lack of women on staff.

As far as being unequally yoked, Bruce went to great lengths to explain that a person isn’t a Christian because they say they are. A person is not a Christian, even if they got baptized. (this was said at about the 36 minute mark.) The point was made that repentance had to be preached.

Without getting into the ends and outs of this one, this is how reading Corinthians to forbid dating non-Christians was presented to me. “Do you work for a non-Christian?” If you do, you are unequally yoked. Think about it for a minute.

In regards to interdependence, this was contrasted with independence and the word “hyper-autonomy”. He didn’t go into detail on this, deferring to the paper written about Interdependence published on DisciplesToday. The main point made was that the UP is about relationships, not just shared beliefs. A point was made that we need to be working together.

• All organizations have structure, form and leadership.

Specifically, the regional reps were mentioned with some detail. One new fact emerged that reps can only serve a two-year term and must be replaced. The meeting in Va. Beach was described as “talking about conferences and needs”. Comparisons were made between the old WSL structure and the new one. Having more people (about 65-70 instead of 12) and having them rotate out periodically is seen as preventing anyone from making a power grab.

• Let us be trained by discipline and grow together.

Hebrews 12 was quoted. The point was made that we should be trained by what has happened. In addition to that, we should grow together and help each other mature. Maturity does not mean leaving the mission behind, Mission and Maturity are of equal importance. Lack of numerical growth does not show maturity.

I agree that we should be trained by our discipline. Unfortunately, we have not been. For fear of overreacting, only cosmetic changes have been made, if that. I do not believe these superficial changes will last. More importantly, though, it is important to say that an abundance of numerical growth does not show maturity - our own past has proven that.

Thoughts on All of This

The presentation certainly sounds very good. I think many will listen and think it doesn’t sound very bad at all. Even I was encouraged by what sounded like a different message I had heard and read. The prepared message was certainly polished through constant use. Here are some ideas that occurred to me upon reflection.

• The mainline churches of Christ are not the same as they were when you were a kid.

For someone that does not want us to talk negatively about churches, he certainly took some shots at the CoC. The most outrageous assertion was that the many CoCs in a given town are mostly due to the splits from an older CoC. They were labeled as having ‘hyper-autonomy’. It was implied that members of the CoC were not suitable for dating. It was stated that we are unique in teaching that every member needs to be committed to God. There was more, but the point has been made. The CoC is not your father’s church anymore. A couple of the fastest growing churches in the US are CoC. Anyway, as a result, I think I am going to talk more in the future about Independent Christian Churches instead of CoCs. There’s a few of them in the list of 100 fastest-growing churches, too.( I only mention that because growth appears the language of God’s favor.)

• We are not very different from Kip

Really, we’re not. It is still believed that we are the only ones that teach total commitment. We still need to put everyone together based on following the same doctrines and practices. There is still an intolerance for different perspectives. Outside help is designed as the ministers in a different areas of the US from our own denomination. As someone else remarked, bad company corrupts good character. We keep company with ourselves, so it is almost certain that we will return to what we were, if we haven’t done so already.

• Not Affirming the UP Does Not Equal Wanting to be Separate

Two questions were asked about churches that do not sign. There was a colossal inability to see that a church, like Toronto, could affirm the need for working together, yet choose to not sign the UP. (For the record, it appears that Vancouver was the first to use the “sign on” terminology.) When asked about churches that do not sign, the answer devolved into a need for cooperation, not for separation.

• Instead of Asking Why Not, Ask Why?

The short answer for why not sign is:

1. Confusing doctrine and practices. The importance of the Trinity is not equal to the mandate to date only “Christians”.
2. It’s about relationships. As the International Christian Churches are fond of saying, unity cannot be legislated. I live 1400 miles away from my family and I don’t get home often. This
   causes friction in our relationships with my family, but none of us are
   going to call it off. We certainly aren’t going to come together and
   draw up a written contract so that we know what to expect from each
   other.

• Seeing Problems Is Not the Same as Solving Problems

This is the pot calling the kettle black, here. However, the fact that I do this doesn’t make it right. Seeing that personal responsibility isn’t taught is not the same as implementing a plan to teach it. Seeing that we should be more respectful of local churches is not the same as actually being more respectful. Start with respecting Toronto, Vancouver, Gainesville, and the churches that haven’t signed the UP.

• We Weren’t United Before Henry’s Letter, We Were Compliant

Unity is not uniformity. We were largely uniform before Henry’s Letter. If there was, as stated in the presentation, a lack of relationship and respect before Henry’s letter, how can it be asserted that we were united?

Epilogue

Not much different than what I’ve said before. Then again, neither is the presentation. It’s why, as I said in the beginning, I have quit acting globally aside from sharing my thoughts. I may be wrong, but in the end, I’m not angry anymore. I’m really quite sad, and that comes through in a shrug when I discuss these things in person.

We’re not going to change on a global scale. God will simply have to eliminate us once and for all or allow us to slowly fade out. We didn’t get the message. We just had to find ways to change as little as possible. Forgive us our hubris, Lord.

The best hope is locally. There’s hope there. We can work with people we know and trust. We can work with other churches locally. We can learn to take personal responsibility for what we have and have not done for our members, our community, and our cities.

Notes

17:25 Bruce talks about LA Unity Plan

says that folks were concerned that LA was about to take over and he could see why they felt that way.
Of course, naming himself as the new Kip would be an alarming thing.

18:53 - Ephesians 4, embodiment of unity plan
Be completely humble, patient, every effort to keep the unity of peace
Concept of unity is dear in the churches, mentions John 17
20:30 Bruce says that our unity will show the world that we are from God

21:42 - Page 3, Humility
Compares UP to Tower of Babel

23:17 - Went over dozens of proposals

24:30 - What role does humility has in someone becoming a Christian? First time you had been that humble. It enabled God to work. As a church we lost our humility, particularly amongst the leaders.
Needed to respect each other more and not compete with each other. Greatest sin of the LA Church, we didn’t respect other leaderships enough.

27:18 - Contrasts ICoC look for other churches vs. what he grew up with in the mainline CoCs. Talks about overcorrections.

28:48 - Shared Beliefs
30:00 - What do we believe as a family of churches? Nothing wrong with questioning everything, we need to ‘come in for a landing’

30:34 - Written because others have said, “I didn’t think we believed that anymore.”

32:00 - Americans cherish their freedoms, we need to think about others, not just ourselves.

33:25 - The UP is done because of love, the ICoC did not do that enough.

34:00 - expectation that everyone is totally committed to God. Analogy to marriage as each one totally committed to the spouse. This message is not
expected outsides of our fellowship. Bruce doesn’t know where it is taught. (Has he looked?)

35:30 - dating only Christians. Saying you’re a Christian, not the same as being one. Doesn’t even pertain to those that have been baptized.
Repentance needs to be preached.

36:35 - Church community.

37:18 - Discipling relationships philosophy based on Scripture. says because there is lots of divorce, one doesn’t eliminate marriage.

38:18 - Churches supporting women.
39:20 - Women should study with, disciple, and lead other women. It is not good for men to do these things.

39:40 - Biblical pattern that women teach women

40:00 - Not enough respect given to local leadership. Decisions made about ministers and leaders where the local leadership was not even considered.
They need to be regarded, at the same time, it needs to be understood that we need each other. Not every church can have the kind of leadership that
other churches have.

41:25 - No putting down other churches or critiquing in public.

41:54 - Mature conflict resolution. Hyperautonomy prevented working through an impasse. We matured in marriages because of outside influence.
Learn from other groups, good and bad. No connection, conflict goes unresolved and churches split. implies that the number of CoCs in a city are due to a split.

43:35 - Course corrections:
44:36 - Will make adjustments as we go along.

44:57 - Independence, no. Interdependence, yes.

46:00 - Isn’t autonomy more biblical? Addressed in Hyper-Autonomy article.

46:05 - It’s relationships, not just shared beliefs.

47:13 - We are corrected the overcorrections. Contemporary religion overemphasizes experience and other things.

47:57 - If we don’t define who we are, the source of our definition will come from elsewhere.

48:02 - Regional Cooperation and Partnership

49:00 - church in NT refers to Church Universal most of the time in the NT

50:48 - Refers to outside help between congregations.

51:35 - Bruce came because he wanted to say, “we need you!” (Does not signing mean to him “I don’t need you?”)

52:39 - Want to see more campus ministries planted so that our kids can go places where there are strong campus ministries.

53:56 - recommended groups
Changed from printed form

54:37 - Representatives. Outside of the select few. In Va. Beach, regions sent reps. 65-70 met together and talked about conferences and needs.

55:40 - Concluding Vision. (Trained by discipline, Heb)

58:06 - Mission and maturity are of equal importance. Lack of numerical growth is not a sign of maturity.

58:41 - If we agree to these things, let’s state it publicly.

Questions:

1. Received negative responses to the UP? If you’re focusing on the Bible, what’s the need for the agreement?
The fellowship and unity in the mainline church didn’t happen.
We are just trying to help each other, we are not trying to control each other. Deflected back into the maturity thing, we didn’t allow people to mature.

2. Came from Europe are there any efforts to help them?
Sean Wooten hired to help them. Almost all of the churches there are weak. This is an example of what happens when churches are left to themselves.

3. Regional representatives - concerned on GSLs. Is there going to be a check and balance if we begin to see hierarchal structure return?
Regional reps allows for accountability.
Reps can only serve for two years and they must term-out. The rotation of people should prevent issues.
Certain people because of their experience will naturally have influence.
If anyone tries to return from hierarchy, it will be shut down. Make sure that we don’t read things into certain actions and overreact.

4. What types of things are being done to prevent overdependence on each other?
Bruce saw this coming many years ago. Must teach more about personal responsibility.
Doesn’t mean that we don’t need each other. It’s like children. They need to own mistakes…

In LA, have DPs and new Christians have more mentoring, but evolves into mutual relationship.
Someone needs to be responsible for ‘making it happen’ while looking to mutual helping.
There needs to be structure and organization. Our family has it.

4b. We raise up people so fast very quickly, we leave young leaders hanging. Unqualified people were in wrong roles.
Yes, we need leadership training. Yes, that is an ugly word for some, but we need more training.
Family Group ends up being a nurturing place for many.
Leadership has more to do with gifts than roles. What are a person’s gifts, Romans 12. Cultivate everyone’s gift.

5. Organization, DP. We are going to have specific disciplers again? Can we find our own disciplers?
Local decision.
LA tried - they do it within the family group. Some are people that no one wants to get with, and we need to help, them, too.
Have a blend of both self-directed and assigned.
Mentioned overcorrection again, said that many began to look only to their own needs. Seek first the kingdom.

6. Larger churches, still some leadership structure. Very bitter Christians to lose leadership, took unpaid folks long time to set up staying together.
Lots of churches like this. What are we doing to pull these churches in? Can we afford to send someone there? No one knows about the small congregations
People are moving from these small places.
This is why we wanted to have regional instead of international structure of leadership. Regions should take care of each other. The reaction weakened
more than the past sins, we never would have allowed this to happen in the past. We don’t have a level of leadership that focuses on only regional
groups. Back to the “we need each other, larger and smaller churches. We need each other.” In about 2-5 years, we are all going to need each other.

7. We are weak in helping others in areas of addiction, teens, etc. We’ve lost DPI and educational areas. Will we fall into same things we did before because we don’t know
any better. What is happening with HOPE WW? What are the expectations with helping HOPEWW.

DPI still exists. They are putting out fewer books, much fewer than before.

One of the things that has been damaged is HOPEWW. Met with Bob and Pat Gempel. LA has committed to support Hope, they say that HOPE would have caved without LA.
For every dollar we give, they can get $25 from the governments. We (churches) give unrestricted funds, that turns into restricted funds from other groups.
Asking for $1 per week per member (Assuming 65000 members, that’s 3.38 million dollars). They are selling their building because they are strapped for cash. Questions raised and things said were not accurate.
The accusations snowballed. Have their been challenges? Yes, they handle above board and ethically. Nothing like what has been circulated.

8. Are they going to make it easier for congregations to manage local money?
HOPEWW does things globally. Global projects are supported by them. On the local level, LA setup HOPE LA. Benevolent money given to them and that
is managed locally. HOPEWW cannot redistribute money to all the churches locally. They do not have the support that they need.
Some of us feel like giving to other projects, but we don’t know where the money goes. These are brothers and sisters in Christ. They have low overhead.

9. If not against you, they are for you. We’re not being proactive…

Trying to reach out and answer questions and respond to concerns. We fell that if churches do not get a connection, they will get weaker.
Is that going to affect my attitude toward them? No, you care for what you give birth to.
Will this divide us? Aren’t we divided right now? We are more divided. We need to come together. We need to overcome our fear of repeating the past instead of doing nothing.
We shouldn’t put it writing? Creeds? Why do people hold on to this? No biblical support for stating that we shouldn’t have a creed. There’s something for
putting it in writing, it makes it clear and provides a starting place. How can this divide us if we are already divided?
What will happen to these churches? If there’s not a connection, they will get weaker. I understand the concerns, but I don’t agree that things are great.
He says that that is the underlying assumption.

We are going to make mistakes, but avoid repeating them.

10. What is the difference between a church that signs and a church that doesn’t sign, but still committed to relationships?
We’re asking if you agree with these statements and principles? There’s no place to sign. It’s a statement of public affirmation. “If they affirm it,
then, Amen — then we will do everything we can to work together. We gotta have a starting place.”
If they don’t publicly affirm it, I’d ask them why. Instead of why do it, ask why not do it? What’s holding back leadership
from letting people know that we want connection and that the body is more than just ourselves. This is the essence.
This is getting lost and I don’t know how.

No step of the nine going to congregations before asking for ratifications. face to face is just good for it.

11. (Not really a question)

Pray for LA. Things aren’t perfect. We have challenges.

LA has come on their own nickel. They’ve only asked for us to cooperate.

12. Where do we go from here? (to ABQ leaders)
Get input from you. See where everyone is at. Are there things we haven’t thought about? Put it together and decide what we’re going to do.

Blogged with Flock

Lots of work on the computer project. Trying to get the software to look just right.

I feel better now, physically. I needed some sleep and I got quite a bit of it. I also had some non-computer, non-writing fun. I’ve learned that my spirituality is helped by having something inspirational nearby. As such, I don’t put our son into the nursery on Sunday - it helps me focus on worshipping God when nothing else has. So far, he hasn’t been disruptive, but I know that the time until he will be is shortly approaching.

Maybe it was partly mental because of the upcoming small groups meeting the church I attend had this Sunday. I haven’t been in a function like this since I left the Advisory Group. I remembered what I didn’t like about the last time about these kinds of meetings.

It doesn’t bring out the best in me.

We’re human, so all the human things came out. Some couples disagreed within themselves about whether or not they wanted to lead. Some couples wanted to have a group made up of entirely ’sharp’ people. Some couples wanted to get out of leading a small group. Some couples aired dirty laundry.

We all wanted to help, though. Being human, I fell into my issue of wanting a quick and simple solution. I also volunteered to lead a small group when no one else wanted to. I was tempted to take some things personally, but decided not to - this was a good decision. I kept remembering that we mostly wanted to help. Those that had less-than-noble purposes would reap what they sowed.

It ended well with encouragement by many. I feel like my wife and I are in a good group. We’ll be the young ones. (Unless mrtool wants to join our group, then he’ll be the young one.) I cannot complain, I got my choice of group - what could be better? Like I said, I’m actually happy about it.

No, I’m not about to descend into a d-group. I’ve ridden that train to the end of the line. Family, yes. I want a spiritual family. The fifth century church fathers of the North African desert can keep their spiritual minders. I hope for a family.

Nothing’s final, though. I think many of us thought it was an idea meeting and preliminary groupings. We did the preliminary groupings and that took most of the time. I think it ended as well as it could.

Tomorrow, though, I’ll warn you will be YAUPP - yet another UP post. Bruce has been offering to go to churches to explain their side of the UP in an attempt to get people to sign. I now have the tape of one such talk to a non-signing congregation.

I’ll just say this - Assumptions will get you into trouble every time. My assumptions get me into trouble. So should Bruce’s.

Beef Rendang from Sumatra. And you may have thought all they had was coffee.

Ugh. May post Monday, I dunno.

As far as Dubya, I voted for him in 2000. He turned out to be completely different from the ‘Great Compromiser’ I understood him to be in Texas. He seemed to be the person that had never run a successful business (including the Texas Rangers) instead of the policy maker he was reported to be in Texas.

Besides, Gore, at the time, struck me as completely the wrong guy.

Has he been gracious since losing the House and Senate, yes he has. Real class, even if the situation forced it on him. It was, as he said, “a cummulative thumping” on Tuesday. At least he fired Rumsfield. He should fire Rice and apologize to Powell. The Republican party is pretty shameless in piling it on Bush now that they lost. It’s why I’ve changed my mind and will not vote for Sen McCain, the guy I really wanted to win the nomination in 2000. (I still have the t-shirt.)

Still, Bush said two days before the election that handing over the country to the Democarts means that the terrorists win. You gotta have some humility after that kind of statement.

Otherwise, bleh. Cobwebs in the brain.

We hold dear what our Declaration of Independence says, that all have got uninalienable rights, endowed by a Creator.

George w. Bush

Moscow - 05/24/2002
to community and religious leaders

I subscribe to Discover magazine. These days I actually read them, despite what mrtool may say to the contrary.

There’s an article about the scientific search for religion that is very much worth reading. I came away from it with a deeper faith, not a shallower one. Not bad considering that the first part of the article concerns a machine designed to give you a ‘religious experience’ when it is turned on.

More later, but I wanted to express that I have had encouraging thoughts lately, despite the spate of posts today.

Whodathunkkit? God in a Discover article…