What does criticism of our recent history have to do with the cross? Probably closer to the intent of the question would be, How can you say such negative things at the foot of the cross?
On Earth, Jesus did not bring glory upon himself, yet submitted to his calling from God. During his life on Earth, he learned obedience to God through his sufferings. Through his refinement, he was able to become the source of salvation for all that obey him. (Hebrews 5:4-8
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In one sacrifice on the cross for all time, the penalty for sin was paid in full. A priest no longer had to offer sacrifices to cover the sin of the people, Jesus provided atonement once for all. (Hebrews 9:24-28) The connection between God and man was no longer through a caste of men serving as go-betweens, Jesus is our mediator. (Hebrews 9:15) Because of his blood, we can approach the throne of God with confidence. (Hebrews 10:19)
When he rose from death, he demonstrated the working of God’s mighty strength. Jesus did not just overcome sin, but death itself. (Ephesian 1:18-21) Once, we were dead in our sin and in our desires of the flesh. Now, we have also been raised from our spiritual death to demonstrate the working of God’s strength in our lives. (Ephesians 2:4-7) It is God’s grace and our faith that saves (Ephesians 2:8) not any work of any man or priest. It is not even by our own strength we are redeemed.
As this is what Jesus’ death and resurrection represent to me, now the present criticism can be addressed.
It is true that we have addressed our former leader. He had to be first in all things, even harming congregations and carelessly disrupting lives in order to be first. Instead of submitting to God’s call for him, he sought to bring glory and honor only to himself. Anyone that has tried to help him address his sin has been eventually rebuffed. Those that attempted to help him individually includes Sam Laing (RTR 3), Steve Staten, Al Baird, Bruce Williams, and Doug Arthur. I’m certain there were others who’s efforts were never made public.
In the end, a collection of his friends even publicly warned him, but to no avail. He was put aside as he should have been. I was upset that such action wasn’t taken much sooner. With all the warnings and rebukes from the pulpit to avoid sentimentality in regards to sin, it felt hypocritical that leaders used the excuse of grace to mask their own personal feelings for their friend, Kip. In retrospect, this may have been the first warning sign that our old paradigms were in great need of change.
Yet, even in the repudiation of our founder and leader, there was no call to repent of our errant theology. We focused on the man without addressing his message. We cast him out without considering the implications of the teachings we held dear in order to fulfill his vision. While calling over and over for Kip to repent, we avoided looking at ourselves and striving for our own repentance as well.
His reaction to continued rebukes was worldly sorrow and superficial change. Our reaction was little different, and this is the difficulty that I continually address. When I look at the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, I see the importance of repenting from deeds that lead to death (Heb 5:44) and allowing the strength of God to work in our lives. It is important to address areas where there has been no repentance and where our own agendas replace the Holy Spirit.
I cannot speak to all churches and situations, but I can speak to what is spoken in public. From what some leaders are saying publicly, it is clear that we, as a denomination, have not repented and we, as a denomination, have little interest in doing so. Order, pleasantness, and silence have become idols to which we sacrifice justice and mercy. As a recent example demonstrates, we are still rebuking those we consider weak instead of bearing with them as Paul encourages us in Romans 15. It appears we have no tolerance for those that do not catch ‘the vision’, and so their needs are seen as a burden to be cast aside.
In general, we have not addressed areas of our theology that are opposed to God. We have sidestepped looking at our practices that harm others. We used John 8 to chastise other denominations for their devotion to ‘strange practices’, yet we hold unswervingly to our own traditions without the slightest examination. There are many areas that are in dire need of examination, salvation and discipleship are two of them.
Salvation
We have taught directly and indirectly that our denomination pointed the way to Heaven. We paid lip service to the possibility of believers in other churches, but qualified that to say that we had not met anyone outside our group that was saved. The root of this errant doctrine was our own formula for salvation. From our heritage, we were taught Hear + Believe + Repent + Baptism = Salvation. We added something between Repent and Baptism because of Kip. As he says in RTR1, I taught that to be baptized, you must first make the decision to be a disciple and then be baptized. Even now without Kip, some of us are still adding things between Repent and Baptism. Phrases such as have the heart of a disciple or demonstrate repentance or attend every meeting for two weeks are still taught. The danger is this additional phrases is that we determine what they mean. When we add these things to salvation, we become the gatekeepers for whom enters Heaven and whom does not. (Only Peter had that kind of authority!)
The intent in adding these phrases is noble, we desire new Christians to be successful in their walk with God. However, it is the Holy Spirit that enables us to overcome sin. Should a person have salvation (and the Holy Spirit) withheld from them in order to overcome sin? Do we really make people overcome sin by human effort when it is so difficult even with the Holy Spirit within us? Besides, even our Savior tells us in the parable of the soils that many who hear will have difficulty. Are we withholding salvation from some who would be good soil for the sake of trying to strengthen those we believe are rocky or thorny soil?
Of course, it is silly to think that a man can withhold salvation from someone (John 6:44). The point is that we cannot be the gatekeepers, nor should we try to be. There is more that needs to be examined (Formulas for salvation, rebaptism, and others) but one thing is clear. Through our theology regarding salvation, we attempt to be God or to make decisions for God to others. We need to repent and allow the Spirit of God to work.
Discipling
In order to meet the needs of so many new converts, Kip implemented a system based on an idea from Crossroads. From RTR 1 Kip says, I came up with “discipleship partners.” In these relationships, the evangelists, elders and women’s counselors, after discussion and prayer, arranged for an older, stronger Christian to give direction to each of the younger, weaker ones. They were to meet weekly, but have daily contact (Hebrews 10:24,25). This idea is furthered explained in the 1988 Leadership Conference by Kip when he says:
Friendship is what builds trust. I really believe with all my heart that you will never be able to disciple someone unless you build a friendship with them and thus they can trust you. You see, here is the bottom line and get this down. The person that you are discipling must believe, must trust that you are out for God and their best interest. Because you see there is going to be some advice they will not understand. But if they trust that you are out for God and their best interest, they will obey.
Secondly, they must believe emphatically that your judgment is better than theirs. This is so important. How can you tell someone what to do, when they are even unsure of what is going on unless they will obey by trust that your judgment is better than theirs? I truly believe that in order to develop this kind of trust you have got to have a time when you are contacting that person every day. Hebrews 3:12 and 13 … so the premise seems clear. Friendship which builds trust which allows you to be able to guide them and to mold their lives.
It can be said that this is now ancient history. Things have certainly changed from almost twenty years ago. However, changing how discipling partners are selected does little to address the deeper spiritual issues. We may not have accountability sheets to fill out anymore, but in many cases, we still have deal with our own ideas of trust, obedience, advice, and friendship.
What has been the effect of our system over time? In my experience, I have seen young men and women struggle with many of the following thoughts and attitudes:
- I am not worth very much to the church or to God.
- If I claim any rights for myself, I am being selfish.
- The mission is more important than my own thoughts and feelings.
- I must please other people regardless of the cost to my person or my values.
- I have to put myself at the disposal of others without any protest.
- I need to get my heart right instead of speaking up when something bothers me.
We can change the name from discipling to mentoring, but the unhealthy practices and assumptions go unchallenged. When we look at shepherding Christians, the idea that a person has no value to God or the church is contrary to 1 Corinthians 12. Every part is needed and every part has value. More than any other attitude listed above, the idea that the individual Christian has little to no value has been the most destructive. Sadly, this idea has been reinforced over the years by the very system designed to prevent this attitude in the first place. This occurred more and more as the emphasis of discipling times shifted to the discovery and elimination of sin and away from prayer and encouragement. Even encouragement was given in relation to overcoming sin (real or imagined). This isn’t to say that every relationship operated in this manner – but even if only a few did, it is worth the effort to prevent this from happening again.
The old discipling system caused other effects as well and many do not change after the hierarchy is removed. Specifically, in dealing with sin, James 5:16 is twisted to mean that you cannot be forgiven of any sin unless you confess it to another Christian. This has conditioned in many of us a need to confess our sins to a person or group in order to feel forgiven. It’s not the confession that the issue, it’s the artificial need for the sake of feeling forgiven.
Jesus is our mediator. Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith. He paid the price for all of our sin. We have direct access to God because he went through the temple in Heaven to grant us that privilege. There is no need to confess to another man in order to be forgiven, Jesus took care of that. There is no need to confess in order to feel close to God, we are already standing at the foot of the throne. We can confess our sins to God himself. Whereas we added to salvation make people perform extra work, we also added to the process of forgiveness to make people perform extra work We have become addicted to these additional requirements to the point that they seem to be perfectly natural.
Though an overused word, it still applies to us. Within the old or new discipling systems we made its participants codependent on each other. A codependent person does not act on their own desires, they react to the perceived desires of those around them. We talk about being proactive, but our discipling system has conditioned us to require a third-party for just about any circumstance in life. For some, this became debilitating. We called this advice, but in reality, it was a request for permission.
A common question to anything perceived to be unusual was and continues to be Did you get advice? There was great pressure to answer YES. Those that answered NO would quickly rectify the situation in case the question was posed again. In my experience, many of us learned to find the very permissive members that would think anything was a pretty good idea. We weren’t looking for direction or advice, we wanted carte blanche to do what we wanted and still be able to say that we had sought advice.
Repentance in this area seeks to provide justice to those harmed. Because of the sacrifice of Jesus, justice and restitution should be the starting point of any discussion. Instead, however, we have thrown our own people under the bus, or we have allowed them to drift away. It’s about time we stop punishing those that are still hurting and repent.
Other Areas
There are many more areas left to address. We set up warped definitions of leadership. We did not protect the weak. We see peoples’ needs as burden to the church. We revise our history to the point of incredulity. We lord our authority over others and encourage the same in our leaders. We blame others for our denominations’ mistakes. There are yet more items than these, but we have not even addressed elementary issues. How can we look to more complicated and thorny matters?
Most importantly, we must address our inability to accept help from those outside our denomination. We worry that people in other denominations will water down the message of the cross while we crush our own people underfoot. It’s a false dilemma to ask which is worse, the truth of the matter is that we can get outside help without watering down our doctrine. As mentioned on DToday, one minister, with the help of Abilene University has written a program as a part of his doctoral thesis. Using Paul’s leadership style in Corinth as a model, many issues can be addressed and we can repent.
Overall, we need to repent of our own hypocrisy. We beg God for mercy, yet we offer no mercy to those that dare to call for change. We cry out for bold vision, as long as it is about evangelism. We call for money and missions to save the world for all generations, but we ignore the generations still holding on in our churches. Where is the repentance in all of this?
Where is the cross? It is far away in a distant land.
Jesus said, These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. God have mercy on us all, I hope we are not too late. The cross compels us to examine ourselves, repent of the hypocrisy and damaging doctrines, and live a new life in the power of God. This is not too much to ask - we would ask no less of anyone that wants to come to Christ.
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30 Responses to “Because The Question Will Be Asked”
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Well said, well said. Sometimes (often) when I’m feeling a disturbance in the force, I’m not sure why–your writing has brought me back to the answers.
What would true repentance look like? How will I know when I see it? Am I just too tired to expect it anymore?
Thank you for expressing that so beautifully.
Old wine skins. At some point, you have to start wondering if the system can be changed. That is, can the system from within, effectively change itself? If the answer is no, you may have to take the more drastic (and harder) step of abandoning it. When is it time to abandon? I don’t know how to answer this. I just think it’s important to set this option on the table. If several prominent disciples decide to leave and can articulate their concerns to the leadership, it might effect change more easily. But of course, you must also remember that there are no perfect churches on earth.
I believe the system will change with another generation of people. Until then, there is no impetus for change except the current leaders’ own conscience.
I am out, but I have been thinking about wineskins a lot. New wine must go into new skins, but if we throw out the old wine, we have nothing to drink. Brand new wine can be harsh, old wines are marked with character, flavor, and mellowness. Are we to throw out the best stuff we have just because we made new wine?
I am beginning to think that this has more to do with the New Convenant than with old vs. new teachings. I’m not so certain of the modern application anymore. I don’t think old wine = ICOC and new wine = reform. More apt to me would be ICOC is salt that has lost its saltiness.
PS I do not want a perfect church. It doesn’t exist. I want a church with problems I can accept.
Well said Pink. I think it is possible that it can change but not probable. That may be my lack of Faith or hope and it just may be realistic. However, God laughs at reality and can do a miracle. Whether He will or not I don’t know but it seems like the pattern in the Bible suggests that He pulls out the remnant. I think this is what He is doing and will do but what do I know.
I think your article is concise and you express things well. My only thought is why not call sin sin? I think the ICOC did a fairly good job of conversion but the little stuff between repent and baptize, as you say, does a lot of harm and you could say sin. It taught to follow man not God. It said put your security in numbers not God. It said your better than others not becoming the scum of the earth as it should be. This lines up as idolatry, addiction and pride and it’s not all. How long before the cross is lost and those things take over a soul? I believe that unless someone is able to overcome those sins inherent in the ICOC than the very thing that helped them become saved can help them ever so gently fall away even though they still honor God with their lips.
P.S. - Oh yeah. Your stuff reminds me of the other thing I saw on PBS a while back. The mormons have a lot in common with the ICOC too. Ok hate me go ahead. Watch it though. It’s a little scary how many similarities there are.
Hi PK.
It’s not as hopeless as it may seem. The fact that you were part of the ICOC, and now see the problems as clearly as you do, demonstrates that it is possible for people from an ICOC background to see those things. Today different people, and different congregations, see those things to different degrees. If you want to use the term ICOC to refer to these churches today, you have to broaden the meaning of the term. These churches are not one monolithic group with uniform practices any more.
Hi Alan:
I usually use the term ICOC Subculture to refer to the broader group with historical ties to the Boston Movement. It refers to those in and out. ICOC in this case refers to the entire subculture, but I totally understand your point.
A quick side note: Many of the same behaviors are shown by ex-members as well. The damage done is not undone just by leaving. You know how hard it is for me to not ‘disciple’ my wife in the manipulating way I perfected in 13 years of practice? She is very gracious, but it is hard for both of us.
I have a hard time believing that without publicly addressing the implications of our doctrines that anyone has really changed. We are not a monolithic group with uniform practices, though we have an agreement that says we are. We do, however, show symptoms of overlooked issues in conservative and liberal ICOC congregations. As I said, I can only speak to the few congregations I have personally visited.
What is being said publicly in Chicago is the same ‘throwing people under the bus’ that get in the way of the grand 10 year vision. What is said publicly in LA is the same ‘we’re more saved than you’ elitism. Quotes from these two places are starting to show up in sermons and articles in other places. I’m certain that by the fall, more than one church will have the mantra “to save all generations”.
What is not being said publicly is that the one-on-one mentoring method has been attempted frequently since the 5th century CE and it ends the same way every time - it is dismantled because of control issues. What is not being said is that it has damaged many of us and we are going to do more than just ‘be nice’. We are going to find biblical ways to help each other so that we do not sacrifice discipleship altogether.
What is not being said is that we need to bind the wounds of the broken hearted. We need to find them help and resources to help them heal because every member has value, not just those that baptize a lot of people.
What is not being said is that we need outside perspective. Without it, I never could have come to understand what little I know now. The hubris of refusing help when offered is beyond me.
Even at midweek tonight, in the very progressive church I attend, I heard some share that they felt selfish for daring to think about their personal property (house was damaged). Another shared that we used to deal with sin well and now we don’t. James 5:16
was preached yet again in a way to imply that a person can only feel forgiven when they confess to another person. It’s all still right there.
So I respectfully disagree, I believe that it is bleak because it has been largely ignored for four years. We cast out the demons in some of out practices, but the heart was empty, though swept clean. If we do not start now, we may end up worse than we were before. Some that have chosen to follow Kip are already worse than before.
Hi PK,
I’m not really disagreeing with you. It is necessary to teach correctively about the problems of the past. And it is necessary to get outside perspective. Those things have been done to a greater degree in some places than in others. I suspect more of that kind of thing would help all of us. It’s very unfortunate that some apparently have not learned the necessary lessons and are returning to the flawed practices. I don’t think that is happening everywhere.
PK, your absolutely right, at least in my case. “Many of the same behaviors are shown by ex-members as well. The damage done is not undone just by leaving.” I can attest to that and how hard it is to remove the bad and keep the good.
I agree that it needs to be said publicly that it was wrong to be corrected. And that outside perspective can help the ones who seek it but most would need that public statement from the pulpit to hear it.
Alan,
One of the problems is that there appears to be a return to an ‘official’ voice for the ICOC via DT. There doesn’t seem to be much variety of thought provided there. Since most folks (if they are looking for stuff) will be directed there vs. Pink’s or your blogsite, your voices are not really heard. Folks have been conditioned over the years, thanks to KNN, etc., that what comes from these ‘official’ sites contain the ‘correct’ answers. Perhaps, you should consider sending in some articles to Roger to publish. You’re an elder (albeit in an non-UP church ha! ha!) and have some credibility. Voices such as your need to be seen regularly as much as Roger’s revisionist dribble.
ttk
Alan: I think I follow you better now. I think I misunderstood you at some point. I will say, though, that I cannot think of anywhere that really has learned the *necessary* lessons. I can think of places that have learned *some* lessons. I can think of places open to outside input. But I am aware that there is room for differing opinions on what the necessary lessons are to a certain point. I believe that I can compromise down to what I posted, but not much more.
RH: I posted what repentance might look like, but my website ate it. Repentance looks the same for everyone as an individual and corporately. It is not secret. It is honest and straightforward. To me it would look like one church saying something like “We want to take care of our members, we are looking to XYZ Evangelical Organization to help us transition.” From a corporate perspective, I think it would look like a posting on DToday saying, “Teleconference to occur this August where we can discuss way to help our people heal, ways to address the harm our mentoring system has done, and to discuss the implications of out theology. This teleconference will generate ideas for roundtable discussions at our next Worldwide Leaders Meeting.”
Speaking of the Mother of All Conferences, I think a conference balanced with classes on very different topics would be refreshing.
BEG: As someone that believes that the ICOC was about 85% bad, you can imagine how hard it is for me! My outside perspective has been a host of ministers and a therapist. I think a lot of insight has come from learning about codependence and interdependence and how the heart behind each are very different, though the outside actions appear the same.
Pink,
Again, beautifully said: “We are going to find biblical ways to help each other so that we do not sacrifice discipleship altogether.
“What is not being said is that we need to bind the wounds of the broken hearted. We need to find them help and resources to help them heal because every member has value, not just those that baptize a lot of people.
“What is not being said is that we need outside perspective. Without it, I never could have come to understand what little I know now. The hubris of refusing help when offered is beyond me.”
John Engler has a new article that looks at some of these issues: http://www.barnabasministry.com/recovery-confront-noworkie.html
Do you think that the “average” member just doesn’t think about all this? That’s my sense of things. Perhaps a vague discontent that is often summed up by saying “my needs aren’t getting met”, and the solution seems to unfortunately be seen as “getting back to…” I have little hope for great change. For me, it’s either be resigned to what is…or exit, stage left.
RH - I agree that most folks haven’t a clue to a lot of things. But more do than did five years ago. Think of reform as a new ‘multiplying ministry’…..everyone teach one…..little by little perhaps we can help shift the view of our own ‘traditional sacred cows’. I don’t think jumping up and down will help (although I feel better sometimes). That’s when they shut you down. But perhaps, a persistent ‘let us reason together’ approach may be more effective. But the reasoning has to be more public than it has been.
ttk
I think the average member feels the effects of our sin, even if he or she may not know how to deal with it. In fact, I would wager that the average member is doing all kinds of things to deal with ‘feeling forgiven now that we don’t have mandatory disciplers’ or ’seeing themselves as having no value’ or ‘being available for everything even though no one is telling him or her to do so’ or any other consequences of our systematic abuse.
In my experience, people that are abused may not be equipped to look outside their situation, but the intervention of a professional (or even a good friend with loads of patience) can help them to overcome.
We have the great teachers who are capable of thinking of such things. Very few of them have done so - and fewer still have said anything publicly. Those that have said something tend to share in safe places or privately to captive audiences. I’m not sure that’s the way to go forward. Discretion seems to be a way to opt-out of responsibility to speak publicly.
Pink,
Extraordinarily well put!
I think that finding an ultimate solution could be just as dangerous as what has so far been preceding the current dilemma. I don’t think that escapes you. As I read all these entries, I thought and thought about possible solutions. I thought perhaps if DPI got involved something could happen. Then I thought, “No that can be more of the same problem.” BY coming out with a detailed yet overcompensating declaration of repentance, and what needs to be repented of, might be just as damaging as any other effort. I dunno…I think that maybe, instead of “counter reformation” we should be more on the side of focusing on what is right that we need to do, instead of what “was” wrong and how to stop it. Did that come out right? I look at history, and I see all the errors the reactionary churches make, and I see a similar path taking place. If a guy studies the reformation and counterreformation, what can be seen is nothing fruitful. However, in the early mid 1500s a group of people formed together, to distance themselves from all the political activities of the violence that began and proceeded from these actions, and focused on the spiritually of Christianity. They were highly persecuted for their faith. Also, they were highly regarded by much of the peasantry. They taught the necessity of baptism, and repentance, and scripture, but have a different way of looking at things than those of us post Campbellites (SP?) have. They are the Anabaptist. Although you may not agree with all of their thinking, they had the right solution to the problems, and didn’t attack the reform, or the Catholic Church. I think that no good can come of trying to reform the “ICOC” and all who share their culture. A person could write a book on the issue, and still maybe not get all of it in the proper perspective. I know that through out the past four years, I have tried to blog and post, and email and so forth in an effort to reveal the fallacies of the ICOC. The truth is that a person must be in a position in life to not need what that culture offers in order to trust a reformer. There ARE those few who have grown in their faith to the point where the errors in the McKean doctrines become oh so apparent. I call that growth. Under the damaging spirit of McKeanism, a person’s faith can only grow as much as he has energy and time to do so; true faith out shines all of that. True faith can only come through focusing on what is true, noble, etc. One of those qualities is mercy. Mercy, kindness, patience, gentleness, faithfulness, peace, self-control…these are the fruits of the Spirit; if these are offered to those who are still in the dogmatisms of McKeanism, or close similarities to it, it will impact their life. Mostly, the way Christians fight a war, is through prayer. I have been snubbed by many of my friends in the ICOC because I no longer am a member. I know that if I continue to offer my love and kindness, they will eventually respond to it; mostly because I pray! Although I am generally under-prayed, I still offer up thanksgiving and hope to the Father in order to hopefully one day enlighten those that I love so much that are still convinced that McKeanism is right and true. Studying the Anabaptist would probably give you a certain amount of “Aaah, this has been done before! There really is nothing new under the sun.”
I don’t know if this is the solution either, and I would probably even say the each individual would need individual love and attention. But I still don’t think reform can be the solution.
By the way, to see what harm the McKean efforts can do to a person, check out this guy (be careful, he swears a little) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J7iLQTiGDs
I’ve seen the dispatcher on YouTube, I can only imagine the demons he still battles.
The Anabaptists were indeed interesting. Their extermination was rather sad. On a side note, it’s funny to me that the only thing Luther and Calvin could agree on was that the Anabaptists were bad.
As far as the ICOC, any solution will mean short-term people leaving. I look at the Worldwide Church of God’s journey and see some of the things you mention. Almost a hundred churches splintered from them trying to get back to Armstrong’s teachings. Some would regard the current WCG as a shell of its former self, but with more mainstream doctrines. As they speak about their own history, the candor and lack of damage control is refreshing.
To save you some reading, they had a top-down change. The new leader just said one day that a certain sacred cow was no longer true, and it unfolded from there. Some see a story of redemption, others see the splintering of a church - I think both happened and good came from both. The one main surviving splinter, the Philadelphia church (in Texas, go figure) is quite obvious in their worship of Armstrong in place of God.
In our current situation, it is unclear what any one congregation really believes. The UP spelled out a few things, but we signed it locally only to disregard parts of it. Although warned to obey 100% of it, we haven’t. (Two couples in our congregation were formed by members dating non members) Like many CoC’s, it is impossible to know what is taught and believed without hearing the sermons.
More later…
PF & PK great stuff.
You know I smashed my finger nail the other day. I had a glove on but it still really hurt. It throbbed and hurt and distracted me all afternoon. Three different times I tried to poke a hole in it by heating up different needles to relieve the pressure but I failed. I tried doing it with a cold needle but only scratched the surface. It hurt really bad but I was scared of the sharp object and of going into my flesh. Finally the pain was so great that it trumped my wimpyness. I heated up a safety pin and pushed it through. The relief was almost immediate. It oosed for a long time and my kids liked looking at it. It still tings a litte and I may still loose my nail but I know it’s on the road to recovery and I have hope.
I think my nail is a good allegory to this current topic. What’s happening and has happened with the ICOC has hurt many and continues to throb. It has a shield of mckeanisms and bad teachings that were designed to try and protect us. It may have worked for awhile but now it is just keeping many from being healed. And the best way for that shield to go down is for one of the guys who made it and is still listened to apologizes for it and pokes a hole in it.
“You know I smashed my finger nail the other day. I had a glove on but it still really hurt. It throbbed and hurt and distracted me all afternoon. Three different times I tried to poke a hole in it by heating up different needles to relieve the pressure but I failed. I tried doing it with a cold needle but only scratched the surface. It hurt really bad but I was scared of the sharp object and of going into my flesh. Finally the pain was so great that it trumped my wimpyness. I heated up a safety pin and pushed it through. The relief was almost immediate. It oosed for a long time and my kids liked looking at it. It still tings a litte and I may still loose my nail but I know it’s on the road to recovery and I have hope. ”
Ooh…eeww
It’s funny seeing about signing the UP yet ignoring it. That’s pretty much what’s happening here in Albuquerque.
As far as reforming “the ICOC”, well, I’m not sure anyone knows what that would mean. But, just as much good has come of folks who stuck around and really, deeply affected many mainline CoCs, I believe that much good *can* come from folks in their respective ICOCs.
Kip said, “Friendship is what builds trust.” That’s true. If he’d just stop his lips from moving after saying stuff like that… That said, I still believe that there is a need for some sort of apprenticeship or rabbinical disciple relationship for new Christians that should end at some point. Certainly the Shepherding Movement Plan we all (yeah, I agreed with it at first) fell for is a load of malarkey and is nowhere to be found in practice by the apostles and first evangelists who, arguably, would have known more what Jesus wants than, say, anyone trained by the Pope Of The ICOC.
It’s sad that we have not Corporately Changed Our Hearts And Minds. Ed Anton, in his book “Repentance”, observed that the preponderance of times the word “metanoia” is used in the New Testament, it is referring to a group, not an individual. Even, if not especially, our favorite “here’s what it looks like” section about “Godly sorrow” in the second letter to the Christians in Corinth.
“On a side note, it’s funny to me that the only thing Luther and Calvin could agree on was that the Anabaptists were bad.”
Strange comment. They agreed on monergism and justification by faith. They really agreed on more things than they did not. In fact, I think a case could be made that modern Luthernism is in more disagreement with Luther than Calvin was.
Bobber: Again, I find you are right. Back-handed comments always come back to bite me. I agree in regards to modern Lutheranism.
Mark: I have an idea of what it could look like, and it may not be a grand unified denomination at the end of the rainbow. Is that what ‘we’ want with the rest of the RM? One big RM denomination?
beg: Everyone has apologized that I can think of, except maybe my old minister in NC and a couple others. I think of what Joel did here and it comes close. He listened to all of us and made the forums in small enough groups to do so. At the end of it, wrongs were righted. People that were really hurt were helped to heal. It wasn’t perfect, but there really was corporate repentance.
all: I really will finish my thought this time. I’ve been lost in the land of lolcats. I can haz cheezburger?
Heh - don’t you mean lolkips?
Or, how about lolayb, pwnin ur basez?
LOLAYB is a cross between lolcats and All Your Base Are Belong to Us.
History for lolcat is here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolcat
History for AYB at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base
I like yours, for LOLAYB I would say something like:
Oh Hai, IN UR BASEZ
MAEK UR TIME
I should have checked back on this thread sooner.
TTK, good idea about sending in an article to DT. What do you think of this one?
http://rouses.net/blog/2006/07/truth-of-gospel.html
Would they publish it? Would it do more harm than good?
“TTK, good idea about sending in an article to DT. What do you think of this one? ”
Yes, indeedy! Roger can’t say no to an elder. Ok, maybe he could but you’d probably then be in good company. If all of you ‘united’ you could become the “Banned Band of Brothers”!!
Pink - LOLUP!! LOLGO9!
ttk
Ok, I submitted that article (slightly tailored to the audience at DT). Hope he likes it
Alan
You’re my hero!!!
I look forward to seeing it on DT (we’ll have to do a compare of what you sent to what is published)
ttk
—-don’t forget to smile!!!!