Bringing the total to 315, an additional 12 churches are the latest committing to the Plan for United Cooperation. This brings the total to 70% of the disciples listed in our Church Locator. New to the list are seven churches from the Middle East, one from London, one from the Philippines and three from the US. See the list of committed churches below. Several other churches have announced their agreement in principle with the Unity Proposal but not wishing to commit at this time.
Disciples Today Article - August 13,2006
There’s a few things to keep in mind about the 70% statistic:
- The Church Locator does not list all of our churches. The Chicago International Church of Christ is not listed, neither is Rancagua Church in Chile. The second church in Eqypt listed as signing the UP, for example, is not on the list. Neither is the Metro Languna church.
- Not all churches gave their membership, so at best we can only estimate. This estimate is probably as close as we can get if we talk about individual members.
- Some churches listed in the locator do not exist. For example, Des Moines does not exist and neither does Rapid City, SD. The three members there are military and attend church in Denver.
- The churches in India do not match those listed on the Indian Churches of Christ website.
Accounting for three of these four things, the estimated number of churches from our ‘historic’ movement is 558. This includes the various Portland churches, using the Indian churches as listed on the website, and removing churches that do not exist. The fourth, not knowing the membership amounts in various places, shall be compensated by counting number of churches that signed. This is done because that number, though still an estimate, is more likely to be accurate.
And for those that object, leaving out the Portland churches, not already on the church locator affects perecentages by half a percent overall, half a percentage point in the US, and much less everywhere else (0 in Africa).
Percentage of churches signing the UP per ‘region’ is:
Africa
70 churches 43 yes 27 undecided 61.43% approve the UP
Asia/Pacific
130 churches 108 yes 22 undecided 83.08% approve the UP
Canada/United States
163 churches 74 yes 80 undecided 9 no 45.40% approve the UP
Eurasia
46 churches 38 yes 8 undecided 82.61% approve the UP
Europe
60 churches 11 yes 49 undecided 18.33% approve the UP
Lat. America/Caribbean
75 churches 35 yes 40 undecided 46.67% approve the UP
Middle East
14 churches 9 yes 5 undecided 64.29% approve the UP
WORLD
558 churches 318 yes 231 undecided 9 no 56.99% approve the UP
No votes are counted only if I have word from a member or have publicly stated that they would not sign. I believe the number is slightly larger, but cannot confirm it.
This says a few things:
- The undecideds appear to be in North America and Europe.
- The overall percentage of churches approving the UP is approx 57%.
This would also appear to support information from Andy Flemming’s Missions report that former World Sectors have changed less than churches in North America and Europe.
This is a for what it is worth. Statistics can show anything you like when there is a semi-informed public. You can count members and make it look like almost 3/4 of all ICoC members ratify the UP. You can count churches and make it look like slightly more than half. Either way this counting should be irrelevant. It should not be important who signed and who didn’t. My guess is that the Gang of Nine has figured out that the UP only works if everyone signs it. As long as there are non-signers, there are issues that could create more division, not less.
Comments
19 Responses to “Fun with Numbers”
well, I shouldn’t be surprised. I’ve figured out this is some folk’s operandi - as you get folks to agree, you use that info to slowly persuade the others that it must not be a bad idea because, hey, so and so, agrees with it. one by one they cave, because 20+ years of training prevents them from thinking any other way.
ttk
Right on toeteaknow.
I’m glad you do this stuff pinakidion. So 33% in Europe and US have signed on. Amen.
Statistics don’t lie, statisticians do.
This putting up the numbers to make things look the way they want them to is troubling to me. Troubling not because I’m surprised, but troubling because it’s still being done. Did we learn nothing from the Rah! Rah! that was KNN? Can’t we stop looking for the best way to tell it and just be completely, brutally honest - perhaps even humble?
And why talk about the percentage of “disciples” that have signed? It’s a meaningless number given:”Disciples” don’t sign, churches do.As you said, no one knows how many are in the ICOC now.Even if you did know, there’s no telling how many disciples there are outside the ICOC. But that’s right, we’re not interested in them.It’s only of value if you want to make things sound better.
I’m also really tired of this “We came up with a great idea. See, a lot of folks agree, it must be a great idea. Those people signing are great people seeking great unity because they agree with our great idea. Our idea must be God’s idea since so many people agree with our great idea. You don’t agree with our great idea? Awwwww. But we love you anyway!” The more they repeat it the more I want to run away and the harder it is to feel good about being in the group and not liking the “great idea”.
Yes, Doug, churches sign, not individuals.
However, there are more important things than this UP. I harp on it because it never ceases to amaze me how little we seemed to have learned. I say ‘we’ on purpose. But there are things that really are different and I enjoy those differences.
It feels like sometimes that when we get a group of folks together that just want to love God, even if they use the ‘old school’ lingo, it works out somehow. I feel that way about the church I attend.
Add in some people that have been in the leadership/privileged culture for more than 10 years and it just seems to get impure somehow. I feel that way about KNN, the UP, the ILC and Heartland Jubilee and a lot of other things.
That’s just me, though. Not everyone that was a leader for 10 years is like this, not everyone that was rank and file is pure-hearted.
Hey - I guess you Heartland guys must not be golfers. Wed is the regional meetings at the ILC and also the Golf Tournament which starts at 8:30a. I see where your regional meeting is set:
Heartland Churches Dan Rice 9am-1pm Marriot Courtyard, South @ 25th St
So far, all the other regional meetings are in the afternoon. Better be careful……they may sneak in involvement in golf tourneys as part of the UP…
It’s all about Lemmings. ICOC discipleship has always been like the classic game. When you become the last one on the ledge, you become the leader. Watch out! The UP is just another version of the game.
Not all members of all signing congregations would have voted to sign. And not all members of all non-signing congregations would have voted not to sign. The referenced article claims agreement of “70% of the disciples listed in our Church Locator” but that is clearly unfounded. The “popular vote” would probably be closer to 50% IMO, maybe less.
All this really doesn’t mean much. It merely illustrates that those promoting the U.P. are painting an overly optimistic view of support.
We don’t need the map of the church to become like a U.S. political map, with blue states and red states, and campaigns to change states from one color to the other. IMO that is what this situation looks like. It is past time for the advocates of the UP to accept the decisions of those who have chosen not to sign.
I know someone who got a reply from one of the Go9 to the effect of “how can you say you want to cooperate or want to be part of a region if you didn’t want to sign the UP? Everyone wants it!”
One of our elders and our evangelist are going to Phoenix before the ILC to talk about regional stuff. We are clearly included in this without signing the thing as are, I believe, Tuscon and San Diego. I.e.: Phoenix doesn’t seem to care that we didn’t sign. If this is the case, hurray for Phoenix!
OTOH, it may be a big arm twisting session. But it just doesn’t seem so. One of our elders will also participate in the regional meeting at the ILC. I don’t think anyone cares that we didn’t sign.
Albuquerque? Where is that again? Do we have a church there?
Mark: I doubt it will be an arm-twisting session, Gordon has publicly said that he believes the UP is a temporary thing for now and will not be important in the near future. It’s the way things should be. FWIW the Heartland regional meeting is including the five that didn’t sign. Like TTK has said, though, no one in the group, to my knowledge, isa real avid golfer.
TTK: Over 70% of the disciples in the Church locator want it, so it must be true.
Alan: It would be nice, but until and including the ILC, politicking for signing is going to be strong.
Man, none of our guys are golfers, either. Our evangelist has taken up fly fishing, so maybe they can have, umm, a FLY FISHING TOURNEMENT! The truth is, only one of our guys - one of our elders - will be at the ILC on Wednesday in time for anything.
Oh well. There is great fly fishing in the Chesapeake area as well as bass fishing…
Silly me……ooh oooh oooh can I sign up now? I want to be a part of the in crowd..
I posted all of this on the ICCDF (per Roger it’s ok to share even tho on subscription side) It’s entitled something like Signs of Health in ICOC churches…..thought you’d like the first point:
) Over 300 churches committed so far to the Unity Proposal representing over 70% of the reported membership. Trust and respect based on a commitment to shared beliefs, cooperation and missions indicate a security in the Lord and intercongregational relationships. Just as in a local church, surely God intended for us to work together instead of separately. Many other churches are still praying and discussing the Unity Plan. Some have decided they agree with all of the principles but cannot commit at this time. There is no artificially imposed timeline. Patience and acceptance are the spirit of the day while we pursue God’s dreams for us. We are seeing mature, functional relationships being built that indicate a significant turn in our working together for His glory.
I see Roger went to the Bruce Williams school of tactful inference:
“
in other words, those who haven’t signed are obviously insecure in the Lord and not interested in intercongregational relationships…
i was just thinking that if thoughs who sign are part of the new ICOC. then would that not mean that 100% have signed. it is all in how you look at it.
personally i with geenday. “I want to be a minority”
I have reviewed hundreds of documents consisting of thousands of pages total from the ICC and HOPE entities. One thing in general I can conclude - whatever they say in public is most often not supported when you get you hands on the real documents. Leaders spin seveything!
I do not trust their numbers …
Allen
Allen, the latest article in DT now says
they don’t even trust their numbers…..
ttk
toeteaknow
Yup, those who haven’t signed are insecure in the Lord. And, according to the UP those who became independent were the only ones to loose members and it was because of their pride!
Well, darn it, now I’m all insecure about us not showing up on the DT Roll. I can’t sing “When the roll is called up yonder I’ll be there” any more.
This, combined with being convicted about our corporate independance and pride plus that fact that we must be losing members has caused me to rethink my position on this. Not only am I going to try to persuade our elders to sign it, but I’m sending copies to ALL of the churches in Albuquerque. As our friend Henry Kreite (almost) said, Albuquerque will be “…the epicenter of a ‘new movement’ of God that I am convinced will make huge waves around the world.” This is certainly better than the “Alice’s Restaurant Anti Massacre Movement”