or How to Acheive Ugly Part Two.
Instead of offering commentary, let me say only that I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I believe it is important that a bad thing shouldn’t be allowed to continue simply because it is easier. On the other hand, I am sure that there are historical issues within my own church that may negate present reforms.
I am encouraged that publishing documents must meet the following criteria listed here. (Link has been fixed.) It prevents the spread of needless innuendo and speculation.
Because of the recent lawsuit in Nashville, some former members hope that this will result in a class action lawsuit or several smaller suits. Being skeptical of the legal profession as a whole, I am hoping that regardless of verdict, the case will promote needed financial openness with historical records.
Caveat Emptor
Comments
4 Responses to “ICoC Investigation Site”
Recent Comments
- toeteaknow: well, since it was a post, the answer I guess is ‘yes’ and not ‘maybe’….. …maybe not? ttk
- pinakidion: what rock said
- Rock: “Is Pinakidion ever going to post again?”
- salguod: Is that an answer to a question that I missed?
- xray342: How’s this for cryptic? $ echo ‘pinakidion’ | md5 16da6556b9ba8a411a6f4251591eae2b
Boy, even with all the nice criteria for posting stuff, it sure sounds like they’re out to get us. “We intend to hang you, but only with the most reliable, verified and accurate information.” I mean, there’s part of me that wants to submit, or see if I can have someone submit, some info from our church. I feel as though we have nothing to hide. Yet, I also feel that we’d still get hung out to dry on something. Like handing them the rope to hang us with. We are/were part of the ICOC, after all! Surely nothing good can come from the ICOC. Guilt by association.
True enough. Guilt by association is a logical fallacy, one I’ve pointed out numerous times.
For example: Speech Thomas spoke at Savannah therefore Speech is totally in line with Thomas ‘Kip’ McKean.
It is reasonable to believe that there may be some points they hold in common because of Thomas ‘Kip’ McKean’s choice in speakers. However, the fact of speaking does not prove that Speech Thomas and Thomas ‘Kip’ McKean have ANY doctrine in common.
What you can say, for example, is this:
Speaker A says that all potential members must be in a small group or they cannot be baptized.
Thomas ‘Kip’ McKean has said that all potential members must be in a small group or they cannot be baptized.
Therefore Speaker A and Thomas ‘Kip’ McKean both believe that all potential members must be in a small group or they cannot be baptized.
I used to be quite the apologist for the ICOC. from 94 to 99, I was defending the church on the ARCB-C newsgroup (long before Delphi or all the rest). I know how it feels to be guilty by association. I am now a former member of Phoenix and I can see the forest from the trees. One thing to keep in mind is that the hurts that most feel are deeply personal. A good thing to try and do is see the truth despite the emotionalism or unkindness of the poster.
One thing I have found frustrating as of late, is that facts are being revealed about how the inner circle of the ICOC eventualy began to use our contribution. Most of it was on the up & up, but there are many things they continue to hide. When I share some of this with friends still inside, they think it’s gossip. The information control of the past still influences minds too heavily. God asked us to use our minds over a dozen times in the NT. Being shrewd and seeking facts is not a bad thing. I see many members choosing to let this sin of greed, pride and disrespect go. I do feel that most are too afraid to REALLY go get more than pie charts. Most us us who post on the boards feel the same. Some take this out on you for just being associated, and that’s too bad. A lot of people cannot understand why you would want repentance in behavior and doctrine, but give a blind pass to financial sin. (’you’ figuratively, i don;t know what you have done personally).
I just know that the secrecy of the Bairds, McKeans and former sector leaders says a lot about their character…and they STILL lead….
thanks for listening.
FWIW, I haven’t looked much at their site. My wife (who was there, though she is not in the video) would be willing to sign an affidavit that the ACES video on this site is deceptive in that it claims to show a reaction to asking to “see the books” when it is actually a reaction to curses and abusive language being screamed by the videographer and the others in the video. Somehow they “accidentally” left that part out of the video.
Liar, liar, pants on fire. I guess she thinks one lie (Bairds, McKeans, etc.) deserves another. OTOH, perhaps “fighting fire with fire” is what caught her pants.
I wonder what other lies she has on there. Very little of the “information” has an associated affidavit attesting to its authenticity. Honestly, the fact that that video made it on there shows to me that she will gladly put up anything that paints any ICOC in a bad light without checking the veracity. It certainly waters down the effect of the parts of her site that actually are accurate.
jeremie: FWIW, there were discussions about Crossroads and Discipling Ministries on soc.religion.christian and in the Christianity forums on Delphi and Compuserve (back when they were just BBSs and hadn’t even connected to the Internet yet) long before the arcb-c newsgroup was created.