pinakidion.*
A writing tablet for my thoughts
If Everything Burned…
Author: John11 Jun
A revisionist look at the ICoC’s recent history remarked the following in part three of the series:
If everything burned, why are there still around 500 churches spread throughout every continent of the world? How did over 100 churches get planted among us between 2003 and 2007? Can that really be due to the power of men? If everything that was built in our movement was built by the power of men with wood, hay and straw, how did so many people become Christians?
After the Fire: Not Everything Burned
I have said it before and I’ll say it again. Numbers do not show the favor of God, the work of God, or the spirit of God. Numbers show numerical growth. Tying numerical growth to the Holy Spirit puts a Christian in a cycle of not being happy except in moments just before leading another person(s) to Christ. It also causes a Christian to see times of God’s refinement as personal weakness instead of the working of the strength of God. There is a big difference, most notably in where attention is focused.
God at work creates change and transformation. Sometimes it is in increased numbers, sometimes it is in decreased ego. Whatever the work of God brings into a Christian’s life, it is not always moving from one degree of glory to another. The depths and valleys bring growth as well. As someone I know can tell you, I don’t think Ezekiel’s ministry was ever marked by tremendous growth sustained over time. Yet Ezekiel has some of the most dynamic stories to tell about his relationship to God and His people.
Here is food for thought using numbers from a large denomination with a worldwide presence:
From 2000-2005 the church grew overall by 13.479%
In the US and Canada, the church grew by 9.2%
Outside the US and Canada, the church grew by 17.2%
The congregations in Cambodia more than quintupled in membership, in Mongolia, membership tripled. In Mozambique, the membership grew by over 5.5 times.
Hey, even the membership in the British Virgin Islands grew by 140%
Can this kind of growth be the work of men? Is it the work of God? What would you need to know to make that determination?
During the same time period, the ICoC has shrunken by 25.66% :
In the US and Canada, the church shrank by 32.17%
Outside the US and Canada, the church shrank by 20.2%
That’s just to compare apples with apples based on the most reliable data available. Since 2005, the big denomination has grown by yet another 2.33%. The ICoC has continued to dwindle another 5 - 6%
Does God have a plan for the ICOC? I believe so, otherwise, we would have been completely destroyed. Looking for the working of God’s strength, though, requires that we look in unaccustomed places. Our usual haunts (numbers) and our usual rhetoric (shut up and baptize) are not encouraging. My hope is that the ICoC is not like Egypt which was built up only to be destroyed as an example to the whole world.
Sycarion Stories
- Paydirt or SI Footbal Dice 8/14/2008
- Ideas for now 7/15/2008
- EABA Contributions Site 6/19/2008
- Tomorrow 6/17/2008
- Do You Have Cheddar? 6/12/2008
11 Responses for "If Everything Burned…"
The thrill of late night bible studies and do anything asked or needed to get somebody under leads to an emotional high and a psychological “ecstasy” as it were. When everybody is standing around and sharing about how the studies and how greatly that person changed, is not necessarily bad, but it creates emotional highs that become addictive. The enjoyment from the experience and its moment of endorphin energy triggers a chemical reaction that becomes addictive, and you get to the point were you will do almost anything to get that feeling back. Is this designed from God, or is the whole thing systemically errored. From my experience and from what I fully understand the bible to say, is that conversion is a by product of love, not a forced entry by manipulative studies that instill undue fear and confusion. 13 years in the ICOC, 3 years in the MCOC, and a few years somewhere with no destination; I stick by this conclusion. There are some false teachings and harmful elements in the first principles study series, which can take years to undo. So overly emphasized is the fact that we are all undeserving of God’s grace, or attention, that we forget how intense and unyielding his love is, and how unyielding the power of Jesus Christ, the name, the sacrifice, the ruler over everything, is exactly. Mercy triumphs over judgment. When our due of judgment is such a big part of conversion, then it maintains to be a big part in relationship. When we confess our sins, more than likely it is not a voice of compassion that responds, although this is Jesus’ path, more likely you will be reminded of how terrible your sin is. Constantly being “Humbled” is harmful to one’s faith. When we have repented of our sin, and joined together with the Father through Christ, the party has just begun. Look at Moses and his relationship with the Father. It is an excellent example of an extremely healthy relationship with God. Paul was told that grace was sufficient; that was Paul, in one incident in his life. We should not look at that and say to ourselves that anything beyond grace is sufficient, regardless of how true it is. The ratio of scriptures that express that we are now the righteousness of God, and that we are to be joyful at all times, as a command, and be filled with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs in communication to each other, our lives should be filled with emotional highs that way, not seeing multiple conversions. That is so McKeanistic, and not amusing to God, that it is scary. If I remember my statistic right from the past, the conversion rate to retention rate is 2 to 1. In the nineties, our dirty little secret is that we were losing as many people as we were retaining. That means as much as there was conversion, there was faith destroyed through the emotional blasting called the “study series” and prejudicial rebuking of people who where not as talented as the local leading evangelist or ministry leader. Perhaps this does not still continue in the ICOC. Perhaps there is a new way of doing things, but I say if that is still the way people, whom God loves more than life itself, are being converted, then it is tragic. I’m glad that they were repentant and experienced a full immersion baptism; that is victory. I just hope it is not a life sentence of being exposed to non-sequitur emotional experiences. This seems harsh? Perhaps, and you can let me have it, I can take it, and even open to further examination of the issue, but to this date, I see only a glimpse of light when it comes to the conversions in the ICOC. That glimpse of light lies in myself, and the experiences I went through. The truth of the matter is that many, many people become Christians everyday outside of the ICOC. That doesn’t mean I condone denominationalism, in fact I don’t, but there are plenty of people in denominations who love God just as much as we do, who just simply need to be shown the true LOVE of Christ and a few insightful corrections to their thinking; brought on only by our love for them. Growth is not the fruit of the Spirit, that can be defined in Galatians chapter 5. It is not quantity, but quality. Much to say, sure, but it was on my heart…
I haven’t read the article (I gave up my DT subscription. Not worth $40 IMO), but I had a similar reaction to that snippet. Just because the growth or numbers are there doesn’t mean it’s from God. Isn’t that the same logic our friend from
PortlandLA uses? Look at all this great stuff we’re doing! We must be from God!As you’ve pointed out, lots of groups can point to successes, does that make them from God too?
Thanks P. Allan as always.
salguod: It’s worth it to me for the good stories. Still, Kelcy has a site again and its amazing what he’s able to do for free.
One thing of note: Roger does apologize for his part in idolizing Kip. That’s a big deal. However, as whole series thus far is rather condescending. Someone left a lantern carelessly on the internet? Just be plain:
Henry wrote to the WSL’s on Jan 30, 2003. Matt Wolpert released HKL on Jan 31, 2003 on ICCDF. Henry edited his letter and released it to the public (which had already read it) on Feb 2, 2003.
If you think Henry is evil for what he wrote, just say so. If you think Matt was irresponsible, say so. It’s not really hard to be straightforward.
Anywho, the fastest growing church in the US was Joel Osteen’s church - it grew by over 13,000 in one year. The fastest growing outside the US was a Pentecostal church in Columbia (forgot the name), they grew by 5,000 in 2006. Would DToday or Kip acknowledge either of those churches as from God?
Our friend in the City of Angels, by the way, is boasting about whom has converted back to his church. He says that Marty Wooten will teach in his LA franchise, something I find very hard to believe. That’s the subject of another post…
“Roger does apologize for his part in idolizing Kip.”
no he doesn’t. he apologizes for ‘over honoring’. There is a big difference in what is implied. ‘Idolatry’ is a sin. ‘Over honoring’ does not convey sin but an admittance of just being too nice to someone and will be inferred as full of good intent.
BTW - Kip’s latest sermon - Marty and Cathy are there. Kip says Marty doesn’t agree totally w/Kip but they share the same ‘dream’. As you listen to the sermon substitute the word “God” for every time you hear the word “dream” and you will soon realize that Kip worships the dream and not God. It explains a lot.
Worshiping the dream and not God explains a few churches out there. Good line.
Hmmm. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormans. Both successful cults (they deny certain fundamental Christian doctrine) that have good numbers in many parts of the world. We can’t go by numbers alone. This gets back to a misinterpretation of fruit. Fruit == baptism == numbers. Too narrow and unbiblical.
Kelcy’s blogging again?!? How do you find all this stuff? That’s great.
I always felt his icocinfo was a better site than DT. I wrote to DT when I gave up telling them it was too expensive and the quality was not up to a site that cost so much. The real reason it’s so expensive is not the running of the site, it’s the staff, i.e. Roger. I don’t begrudge Roger having a job at DT, but don’t tell us it costs a lot to have a web site. It doesn’t. It costs a lot to have a web site with a full time staff.
Bobber: I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, the statistics for the large denomination were the Latter-Day-Saints.
That is a good line TTK. Good stuff to Pink.
I saw something on PBS a few months back about Johnstown. Take away some of the obvious sin and the Kip’s just like him. He get’s his security from numbers and praise. He seems to be a really insecure guy.
One day maybe we will all be mature enough to be content in all circumstances–when numbers are climbing and when they are not; in times like February 2003, and times like the present. None of those circumstances should dictate whether or not we have the peace of God.
Alan - it’s an uphill climb. I heard one of our ‘interns’ speak last night re what ‘makes God smile’. While he had some good points, one of them was that God smiles when ‘we are fruitful’. I turned to my husband and asked “so, does that mean doesn’t smile at us when we aren’t fruitful?”. That’s really what will be taken away from the discussion. And this isn’t coming from some oldtimer - it was from a 20 something year old. As long as ‘fruit’ is equated to ‘baptisms’ and not to ‘love’ or another quality that is reflective of a Christian (and fruit is what attracts animals, etc to the seed in nature so that the tree/bush can replicate) we will continue to miss the point.
ttk
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