pinakidion.*
A writing tablet for my thoughts
Say Something, Say Anything
Author: John25 Aug
It’s been a while and there is still very little reaction to Thomas’ calling of the remnant. Maybe cooler heads are mulling over a more reasoned response.
I would like to hope this is true.
UPDATE: It seems that maybe cooler heads may prevail after all. I found out about a discussion that promises to address the issues raised by this article. As such, let me encourage you to just skip the rest. More coming soon.
Meanwhile, I’m waiting. I’m waiting for people that set themselves up as leaders for “our fellowship” of churches to act like leaders.
You know, we all have our interpretation of HKL and subsequent fallout. Many, including me, have opined about various ramifications and hopes for the future. We’ve proscribed all kinds of treatments and solutions ranging from the drastic to the mundane. We even argued a bit with each other and got upset at perceived overreactions and underreactions on both sides. In short, it’s been like one of my family reunions - we get angry at each other, but we all come together at the end of the night.
However, there are some of that are seen as leaders across several churches. If you’re not sure you are in this category, ask yourself if you have been asked/paid to speak at a church that is not your own or remotely closeby. If you have, I’m talking to you. Just to be clear, let’s say that I am a member of the Twin Cities Church of Christ in Minnesota. If I am asked to speak in Texas or Arizona or Florida - places that are clearly NOT close to my home church - I am seen by others as a leader equivalent to the old World Sector Leader or Kingdom Teacher or Kingdom Elder titles. If this applies to you, again, I am speaking about you.
Say something. Everyone wanted to know your thoughts about how to deal with HKL, why do you think they don’t want to know your thoughts now? Are you waiting to tell them in person? Is that it? Here, Thomas rewrites history, distorts the truth and it goes unchallenged. Now, he is calling out a remnant - are you so greedy that you won’t say something until you’re asked to speak at your next seminar? Yes, I said greedy. Some of you go to 10 -12 conferences a year all over the world. If you don’t want to be seen as a worldwide leader, then STAY HOME AND STOP ACTING LIKE ONE. However, since you are, then do what leaders do: act.
A threat is coming to our fellowship of churches and the resulting silence is killing me. It’s also hurting many others that are afraid of Thomas, but like Voldemort, will not even says his name. People are afraid and they need to be comforted. If you really want the followership to act respectful and trust you, then DO SOMETHING. Say that it will be okay. Say that this church will not follow Thomas. Say that this church WILL follow Thomas. Say that Thomas has some good ideas. Say that Thomas is the paragon of eisegesis. Just say something, anything. Saying that certain principles are good/bad/indifferent will not cut it, people are not afraid of so-called discipling, they are afraid of Thomas McKean. Without saying Thomas McKean in your remarks, their fears will not be addressed.
Be like the Apostle John would said to Gaius that if he came into town, he would address what Diotrephes is doing. Why do we know about Diotrephes? Because the Apostle John called him by name, not by teaching. You think he showed up and said in a nice,even tone that “certain people” aren’t welcoming the brothers and “certain people” are gossiping maliciously and that those “certain people” need to stop?
Be like Paul who confronted Peter to his face, in front of everyone. He saw what was happening and he dealt with it.
I’m not railing on you because I enjoy it or because I am trying to heap coals on your head.
I am begging you. Please say something.
Even I, who says all kinds of things in criticism, still hopes in the trustworthiness of certain men and women. I will fight my own battles and I don’t need you to fight them for me. I’m not asking for that. I’m asking for you to just lead. Help us with our fears. Give us some hope.
If all of this sounds like too much for you - STOP TALKING ALL OVER THE WORLD AND STAY HOME.
If you decide to hesitate, then don’t look for support from me.
If you decide to do something, I will follow you.
Sycarion Stories
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- Ideas for now 7/15/2008
- EABA Contributions Site 6/19/2008
- Tomorrow 6/17/2008
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32 Responses for "Say Something, Say Anything"
Hey Pink,
I faithfully read your blog but have never commented on it. I’m in Boston and I just sent links to Kip’s article and yours to request his thoughts. Thanks for posting this.
Amy
Whoops, I meant to say I sent the links to my evangelist.
Hey Amy,
Glad to be of some help.
I have heard from an elder in one big church already. I know how the evnagelist in my church feels. It’s folks that have major influence that I wonder about. Where are they?
DisciplesToday has a disclaimer on the Portland Story, but only to admonish unity. How is that possible when Thomas is about to divide churches?
Since you read regularly, you know that I love my church dearly and feel very safe here. I am concerned for the future.
Thanks again, I hope for the best.
I dis-obeyed and read the rest anyway.
Very well said.
The other thing I would add is that I feel the need to take time and measure my own response, you mentioned the need for some time to pray and I would imagine those in the positions you mentioned feel the same way. It ahs only been a few days since the date on the letter and less since it was published on line.
I plan on putting something on my blog about this later and sending something to our board / evangelist / deacons. I just want it to be thoughtful, not reactionary.
My wife, who made me explain eisegesis to her, tells me you’re doing what you accuse them of doing when you just say, “…trustworthiness of certain men and women…” and talk all around these guys without naming names.
Awww, go ahead. Tell us you mean Douglas Jacoby. And Gordon Ferguson. And Windham Shaw. Heck, you could even throw in Sam Powell and Steve Kinnard. See how easy that was? Shoot, now I can’t show my face in NY any more.
Mark
My list is actually different than yours. In part, it was a shorthand way of referencing quite a few folks.
But you have a good point. If I have time tonight, I’ll list them all. Now, where did I put that printout…
Hey Bear, I wrote a letter to a few of the Triangle folks I still have contact information on, and I included the link to Kip’s sermon. I asked these folks to pass it along to the elders and ministers, and I got confirmation this morning that that has been done.
I have only seen one response, and it was from Casto Fernandez. In his words…
“Arrogant. Triangle will not be following any narrow path, but God’s. Thanks for the forward. Soli Deos Gloria.”
Don’t know if I’ll hear what any of the others think. The guy who sent this back to me indicated he had talked to a few others, and they didn’t seem to think I was being reactionary, or just plain nuts.
Time will tell…
More disunity? That’s exactly what we do not need at this point in time. I still applaud the efforts of a lot of disciples out there striving to live ’sold out’ lives for God. If congregations want Portland’s help I have no problem with that. However if they are not interested, then Portland should respect this. There is no need for Kip to go divide churches. In a lot of the congregations there are some that are strong and some that are weak. What benefit is it to try to take the ’strong’ disciples away to start a new church and leave the ‘weak’ Christians on their own? We are all in this together.
However, let me say this. My advice to the churches everywhere is to not pick sides (ie. I am with Kip or I am against him). It has nothing to do with picking sides. Rather, choose to be on God’s side. Let’s respect opposing viewpoints and stop being critical. I think we can learn a lot from Portland. To say we can’t is being narrow minded. What we should do in all the churches everywhere is just be disciples: share our faith daily, be at all the meetings of the body, sacrifice monetarily, stop this crazy practice of dating non-disciples, build the church, love the lost, be involved in each others lives (discipling relationships!). If we do this then we can respectfully decline Portland’s offer for assistance. We will also be fulfilling the responsibility that God has given to us. And to God be the glory!
My husband and I noticed this silence you are speaking about. The first one I saw came when the productive talks going on around the church were stopped by leadership. I think they exposed everyone’s sin and called all to repent(not just leadership). The second silence was the lack of solid convictions on how our church should live and function as a body. No deep heart-to-heart relationships like before, feel like every man for himself. The third silence is now- a challenge has been put out there by Kip. There is nothing more paralyzing than not taking any stand and watching the conviction and unity wane in the church, at least that’s what I see in my church. I’ve heard talk from my evangelist about “our church following or not following Kip”. All I care about at this point is whether I am following God and his word or not, because I’m sick of the politics. God is about unity in one God, one law, one body. I actually don’t have a problem with Kip offering to help churches if they ask for it, but to give the idea that if you don’t ask for his help then you’re not united in God’s movement is giving the idea of division. One thing Kip is right about- “No doubt there will be divisions among you to show which of you have God’s approval.” God will indeed make it clear who is following him and who isn’t, as he has done once already. I think people would be much more confident knowing exactly where their evangelist or church stands. Then whether they agree or not, they can decide whether they want to be a part of that remnant. Right now, as far as my church is concerned, it feels like I’m not part of anything. My relationship with God? My husband and I fight together to do God’s will everyday staying in the Word and praying to ask God to guide my steps daily. After all, by that alone will we all be judged.
Thank you RJ for the reminder of what is truly important. I look forward to my wife and I’s time away this weekend to spend time with each other and with God.
Why do you refer to Kip McKean as “Thomas”? I’ve only seen and heard him refer to himself as “Kip”. Are you trying to be disrespectful to him or is there something I don’t know about going on here?
No disrespect, it is simply his given first name. It’s something I started doing a long time ago and now I’m used to it.
Kip McKean will be speaking at the Seattle Conference and does not appear to be ostracized in anyway, as is right as he is our brother in Christ. I personally disagree strongly w/ his “calling out a remnant” but I also respect the gesture of unity extended to him. Whether we like it or not, we are now a loose-knit family of churches and the Portland Church, with their leaders, are a part of this family. This is nothing new - we are still imitating the 1st century church even in this “semi-organized” regard.
It is also clear however that God disciplined our movement and God, whom I believe is still in control, will exercise his sovereignty appropriately. Our leaders should not remain silent of course, but we need have our own convictions - as has been said so often before: “Even if I am the only disciple left on earth, will I personally remain faithful to God and my purpose?”
Great comments Rob. I think that there are a lot of individuals out there including leaders that have to stop being critical about Kip and suspicious of everything he says or does. Instead we should try to implement some of the things being done in Portland (and other churches) and strive to get back to being disciples only. I don’t know how anyone could ever say that the turnaround in Salt Lake is a bad thing. Whatever they are doing is working. Hopefully Kip sees that causing division in churches is not a good thing. However, maybe the division that is occurring in churches these days has less to do with Kip and more to do with people not wanting to get back to the discipleship of the bible.
Would you extend a gesture of unity to Pat Robertson to come and speak also?
I rather like Pinakidion’s use of the name Thomas. Mr. McKean is clearly a very prideful man who makes judgements solely on pragmatic grounds. Just look at his summation of Henry Kriete’s current ministry. Is there anything more pragmatic than this? I wonder how Thomas would asses the ministries of Isaia or Jeremiah who did not seem to have many converts at all? Thomas is a worldly sinner who needs to be cut down to size and his clearly error filled teaching must be strongly critiqued.
Why do you assume that daily bible devotion is enough to satisfy the wrath of God? Why not 3 or 5 times a day? How do you know? Hint: this is clearly a vestige of Pelagian thinking.
Getting back to the name thing … I know it’s his given name, but it seems that he prefers to go by “Kip.” If I asked you to call me by my middle name (which is quite common) and you kept calling me by my first name, I would take it as a sign of disrespect.
Kip apparently doesn’t want to go by “Thomas” for some reason, and I think you should respect that.
We need to pray. It is all about serving God, there are still many lives to reach out to, and we have so much family to build within our own churches. Let us all seek God’s will for our lives, and let God discipline Kip, you, and I. We need to be more focused on what Jesus called us to do ie (loving each other, our neighbors, God) and not on one man’s plight on saving the world. Jesus is why we started this for our own lives, Jesus is what I plan to focus on as I move daily closer to the end of this life. I thank God for the use of men to bring me into His kingdom, but from here on I will and we all should dedicate ourselves to truly living for God. Let us all becareful how we view what God maybe allowing for future disciplne on us all. Stay close, love one another, love God’s word, and love peace. I say that to all of us.
way to go, calling out those in power of influence. and i think you hit the nail right on the head, call kip out by name rather than sugar coating it or fluffing around it. well said
From what I can see, many are simply ignoring Kip because they are so focused on rebuilding their own lives and congregations. My question for Kip is who is overseeing him? Since he leads one of the fellowship’s smaller congregations, since much of his life’s work did not survive God’s discipline because of his own worldiness and unspirituality (this from his own repentance letter), and since he has thus far been unable to demonstrate the ability to lead a humble, God-focused effort, he is a perfect candidate to be overseen by one of our more mature churches.
Your prayer was answered powerfully: http://www.bostoncoc.org/Boston/elders_address.htm?xid=157759
Way to go Boston.
SUPER DUPER SOLD-OUT DISCIPLES
My vision is the evangelization of all nations in the 21st Century. I am taking the initiative to help rebuild any congregation that asks my help thereby aiding in rebuilding a global movement of “super duper sold-out” disciples that will reach this lost world. If you’ve already committed to being a sold-out disciple, I am calling you higher.
If a leadership turns to me and asks for help, I am willing to disciple them to rebuild the foundation.
I believe it is time for a progressive “calling-out of the remnant of super duper sold-out disciples” from dying, former ICOC Churches. If a group asks for help to restore the foundation of super duper sold-out disciples, I will help in any way I can.
In the fall I will begin to seek out church leaderships in congregations that are struggling to ask if I can help them build a foundation of super duper sold-out disciples. If they are not inclined to receive help, then I will offer help to any group that would prefer to be in a new congregation composed of only super duper sold-out disciples. To the casual observer, this may look like “two churches in one city.” Yet, in time it will be obvious who has God’s approval because we will baptize more people than the former sold-out disciples. How will we do this? Simple, instead of the low sold-out standard of attending one Bible Talk per week, we as super duper sold-out disciples will expect our members to be in at least two Bible Talks per week. If you’re single or campus, the expectation is three Bible Talks per week.
My big fear is that someone will want to start a movement of supercalifragilisticexpialidocious super duper sold-out disciples. How am I supposed to top that?
Some might say my pride is only exceeded by my arrogance in calling out the remnant of super duper sold out disciples.Your right. “This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But perhaps it is the end of the beginning.”- Winston. We can only hope for the end of this foolishness.
That’s hilarious, Doug! Just goes to show how ridiculous Kip’s call is.
What many people dont realize is that Kip has ALREADY BEEN sinking his FANGS into other churches. I remeber reading on a few Africa church websites, also on ICOCINFO.ORG that THEY had sent people to PORTLAND to INTERN. This was not too long AFTER the Chicago conference. This was CAREFULLY PLANNED by him for a LONG TIME.
I hope everyone sees that this is not really a laughing matter. Pray for your leaders. Pray for yourselves. Let’s look at the cross and be inspired. The bible does not talk about different levels of commitment. We should all be on the same page. By the strict biblical definition, is there anything other than a ’sold out’ disciple? Whatever terminology we use is not sufficient to describe the total commitment that Jesus calls us to. I believe that if every Christian recommitted to putting Jesus first, we would not be having this seemingly endless discussion. As I have said in the past, there are a lot of visionaries and dreamers in Portland and Salt Lake City and other places. Let’s not criticize them. Let’s put an end to character assassination. What good does it accomplish? Should we not heed the Scripture that teaches us to say only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs? Let’s think about the cross and think about how we can change the world instead of being so inward focused and caught up in pettiness. Cheers everyone!
Chris, what do you think about the announcement from the Boston elders? Are they character assasins?
Chris,
Oh, you mean Kip really is serious about calling out another remnant. What happened to the last remnant that he called out? How many remnants can one man call out in his llfe time? I guess we’ll find out. If he can call out a remnant why can’t anyone else?
Doug Vance is that you down in Austin? You old dog you. This is your old University of Houston campus ministry partner now in San Diego. How are you big Guy?
What’s Paul? Hope all is well with you guys. I’m back in school working on a Masters in Theology. I still remember those nights studying for our history class.
Isaiah got married a few weeks ago and is in grad school at ACU.
Karen’s doing great.
JOsiah’s taking classes and working.
I lead the church in Fort Hood, Killeen. God’s been gracious and has been good to us and the church. Peace
Interesting that “pinakidion” means “writing tablet” - taken from Luke 1:63
where Zacharias uses one to confirm John (the Baptist) as the name of his newborn child. He was struck mute due to his unbelief and lack of faith concerning his son when given the truth at the temple, and in fact was kept mute until after he confirmed the name by using the tablet.
) - not comments on the things your brothers are doing or not doing.
You and the other bloggers out there strike me as ones who appear to have heard the truth, but like Zacharias have been silent except for writing down your many thoughts on the tablet of the Internet. Where were all these thoughts and comments (along with the criticisms and sometimes slander) when it really counted - when the leaders, many of whom are now gone, needed to hear them? Surely those leaders, along with any current leaders, would have been changed in some way by those they led speaking out in love. The only way to be what Jesus called us to be as a church is to love one another - wouldn’t it be better to just do that in your local congregation instead of spending your time writing all your postings and continuing to stir up the divisive ideas and rhetoric that is currently flooding the ‘net?
I spent a few hours tonight reading up on the current “crisis” (compared to what’s happening in LA, MI and AL, it looks pretty minor indeed) just to be familiar for when I discuss it with my church leadership (I’m expecting to be asked for an opinion by many in our congregation - if I explain why, I probably will reveal myself and I prefer to stay anonymous), and I stumbled upon several blogs (yours, salguod.net, Blog in My Own Eye, etc.). I would caution all of you to be careful with what you write as your own opinion and the effect this may have on others, especially those who could be influenced by your outpourings. You may be unduly influencing others to accept your opinion without considering their own convictions - a noted problem with the “old” ICOC. As someone noted on one of the sites I read tonight, we have too many ways to easily communicate today, but that does not make it all good. In fact, we have replaced face to face resolution of issues with anonymous postings of our opinions (wow, I should talk - so, I’m a kettle and call me “black”). I have concluded that tonight will be my last post of a comment to a blog on spiritually-related issues, and I instead will just follow Jesus’ command to love by brothers, and in this way show the world my unity. I love you as brothers (and sisters if it’s sisters who are behind some of the blogs), but please, please stop wasting your time typing out your thoughts, and get out there and practice your love for others and show the world your faith and commitment to be unified with others who love Christ. Be struck mute, as Zacharias was, and now that you have written on your tablet what you think, go on and live a life of praise for God (as Zacharias did in Luke 1:64
Just my opinion, and I realize I am being somewhat hypocritical just by posting this and staying anonymous. Please forgive me,
Moth
September 4, 2005
Hey Moth,
I don’t think you’re being hypocritical at all. You’ve done nothing wrong. In fact, I think you’re pretty clever and I appreciate that.
However, I think you do not know enough about me to draw some of the conclusions you have. You only ‘know’ me from here. Most folks that read here know my name and who I am.