As I’ve mentioned before, Bruce Williams, lead evangelist of the LA Church, has offered to visit any church with questions about the Unity Proposal. This offer is free and available to anyone that desires it. He will not force a visit on anyone that does not wish one.

After hearing about these visits and reading about his work in South Korea, I was interested to hear what one of these visits was like. I pestered an online friend for an mp3 and the rest, is quite literally, history. At the end of this post will be my notes from the recording I received.

The sticking issue for me was an attempt to find out what he is actually telling people about the UP. As I continue to grapple with what is happening with the ICoC, I have resolved to act locally while thinking globally. I spent 2003-2005 trying to act globally and locally and it almost killed me physically, emotionally, and spiritually. My experience has shown me that positions about various issues pertaining to Henry’s Letter were firmly entrenched as early as March 2003. These positions vary quite a bit. Not surprisingly, many ‘reformers’ were and are as equally unyielding as the conservatives. The conclusion for me, has been to continue involvement locally. Despite hesitation and nervousness, I went to a small group leaders meeting to offer help. I decided ahead of time that I only wanted to help – I had no agenda.

But I digress. This is a post for what it’s worth about what I heard on the tape. I’m not going to email Bruce (again) or the nine (again) or anything else. Again, the notes will appear at the end.

Underlying Assumptions

The message was simply going through the UP with explanatory remarks followed by a question and answer at the end. The framework of the presentation appeared to be this:

• Humility is the key to our churches moving forward.

Some time was spent talking about the number of proposals and the mistakes of the past. Bruce remarked that the greatest sin of the LA church and leadership is general was the lack of respect for local leaderships. Decisions were made sometimes completely without input from a local church. Going forward, we should all respect each other.

A contrast was made between the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11 to the early church. More can be made about this comparison. I will only say that the founding of Babylon and the founding of the church may not be a relevant comparison. God scattered the church in Acts, but the reasons were quite different.

• We need to clearly state what we believe.

Two different reasons were given for this. One was the uncertainty amongst churches in the ICoC. The other is that we must define ourselves or we will be defined by others. I will say that the uncertainty about what we held as basic beliefs did occur. There are churches of the former ICoC that openly question baptism from the pulpit. However, most of the uncertainty came over practices, not doctrine. There is a huge difference between questioning practices and questioning doctrines. I do agree with Bruce, that asking questions is good, but that there is a time to make decisions about those questions. I probably disagree with Bruce that certain matters can be left undecided – every matter does not need an answer right now.

As to having others define the church, I’m not certain why this is a large problem. I see the point and I understand from church history that Christians had to defend ‘who they were not’ very early on. They were accused on being cannibals (eat the body and blood of Christ), atheism (no images of God in worship), and other things. It seems that Peter encountered unfair characterizations about himself and the church. His answer was to 1 Peter 2:12. Still, Paul says to be careful in our treatment of outsiders so that we can answer everyone. As such, I can understand why folks would want to have a statement of faith in writing.

• We need to function as a church community again.

The church community was explained on a local and global level. It is difficult to separate them in Bruce’s remarks. He did mention that references to “the church” in the NT almost always meant “the universal church” and not “the local church”. Aside from that, community required two key factors: supporting biblical patterns in the church and creating a means of cooperation.

Supporting Biblical patterns is pretty broadly stated. Specifically, this broke down into discipling relationships, women instructing women, dating only Christians, and the interdependence of churches.

Great care was taken to explain that discipling relationships did not mean what we had before. As I have said before, and one of the questioners alluded to, without any significant training and change of practice, it is inevitable that the old manner of discipling relationships will return. A man can be cured of demons in his heart, but if it remains empty, they will return more powerfully than before. Still, wanting help and advice is a good thing. More on this later.

As far as women teaching women, I’m way out in left field on this one. A prophetess spoke to the entire church in Acts. Breaking it down to differentiate ‘sharing’ vs. ‘teaching’ is downright time-wasting. Maybe I’m so much a part of this corrupt generation that allows women professors that I am desensitized to the dangers of women teaching men. My best professors were women. But that could go round and round forever. No mention of paid women staff was made. There wasn’t even a lament of the general lack of women on staff.

As far as being unequally yoked, Bruce went to great lengths to explain that a person isn’t a Christian because they say they are. A person is not a Christian, even if they got baptized. (this was said at about the 36 minute mark.) The point was made that repentance had to be preached.

Without getting into the ends and outs of this one, this is how reading Corinthians to forbid dating non-Christians was presented to me. “Do you work for a non-Christian?” If you do, you are unequally yoked. Think about it for a minute.

In regards to interdependence, this was contrasted with independence and the word “hyper-autonomy”. He didn’t go into detail on this, deferring to the paper written about Interdependence published on DisciplesToday. The main point made was that the UP is about relationships, not just shared beliefs. A point was made that we need to be working together.

• All organizations have structure, form and leadership.

Specifically, the regional reps were mentioned with some detail. One new fact emerged that reps can only serve a two-year term and must be replaced. The meeting in Va. Beach was described as “talking about conferences and needs”. Comparisons were made between the old WSL structure and the new one. Having more people (about 65-70 instead of 12) and having them rotate out periodically is seen as preventing anyone from making a power grab.

• Let us be trained by discipline and grow together.

Hebrews 12 was quoted. The point was made that we should be trained by what has happened. In addition to that, we should grow together and help each other mature. Maturity does not mean leaving the mission behind, Mission and Maturity are of equal importance. Lack of numerical growth does not show maturity.

I agree that we should be trained by our discipline. Unfortunately, we have not been. For fear of overreacting, only cosmetic changes have been made, if that. I do not believe these superficial changes will last. More importantly, though, it is important to say that an abundance of numerical growth does not show maturity – our own past has proven that.

Thoughts on All of This

The presentation certainly sounds very good. I think many will listen and think it doesn’t sound very bad at all. Even I was encouraged by what sounded like a different message I had heard and read. The prepared message was certainly polished through constant use. Here are some ideas that occurred to me upon reflection.

• The mainline churches of Christ are not the same as they were when you were a kid.

For someone that does not want us to talk negatively about churches, he certainly took some shots at the CoC. The most outrageous assertion was that the many CoCs in a given town are mostly due to the splits from an older CoC. They were labeled as having ‘hyper-autonomy’. It was implied that members of the CoC were not suitable for dating. It was stated that we are unique in teaching that every member needs to be committed to God. There was more, but the point has been made. The CoC is not your father’s church anymore. A couple of the fastest growing churches in the US are CoC. Anyway, as a result, I think I am going to talk more in the future about Independent Christian Churches instead of CoCs. There’s a few of them in the list of 100 fastest-growing churches, too.( I only mention that because growth appears the language of God’s favor.)

• We are not very different from Kip

Really, we’re not. It is still believed that we are the only ones that teach total commitment. We still need to put everyone together based on following the same doctrines and practices. There is still an intolerance for different perspectives. Outside help is designed as the ministers in a different areas of the US from our own denomination. As someone else remarked, bad company corrupts good character. We keep company with ourselves, so it is almost certain that we will return to what we were, if we haven’t done so already.

• Not Affirming the UP Does Not Equal Wanting to be Separate

Two questions were asked about churches that do not sign. There was a colossal inability to see that a church, like Toronto, could affirm the need for working together, yet choose to not sign the UP. (For the record, it appears that Vancouver was the first to use the “sign on” terminology.) When asked about churches that do not sign, the answer devolved into a need for cooperation, not for separation.

• Instead of Asking Why Not, Ask Why?

The short answer for why not sign is:

1. Confusing doctrine and practices. The importance of the Trinity is not equal to the mandate to date only “Christians”.
2. It’s about relationships. As the International Christian Churches are fond of saying, unity cannot be legislated. I live 1400 miles away from my family and I don’t get home often. This
   causes friction in our relationships with my family, but none of us are
   going to call it off. We certainly aren’t going to come together and
   draw up a written contract so that we know what to expect from each
   other.

• Seeing Problems Is Not the Same as Solving Problems

This is the pot calling the kettle black, here. However, the fact that I do this doesn’t make it right. Seeing that personal responsibility isn’t taught is not the same as implementing a plan to teach it. Seeing that we should be more respectful of local churches is not the same as actually being more respectful. Start with respecting Toronto, Vancouver, Gainesville, and the churches that haven’t signed the UP.

• We Weren’t United Before Henry’s Letter, We Were Compliant

Unity is not uniformity. We were largely uniform before Henry’s Letter. If there was, as stated in the presentation, a lack of relationship and respect before Henry’s letter, how can it be asserted that we were united?

Epilogue

Not much different than what I’ve said before. Then again, neither is the presentation. It’s why, as I said in the beginning, I have quit acting globally aside from sharing my thoughts. I may be wrong, but in the end, I’m not angry anymore. I’m really quite sad, and that comes through in a shrug when I discuss these things in person.

We’re not going to change on a global scale. God will simply have to eliminate us once and for all or allow us to slowly fade out. We didn’t get the message. We just had to find ways to change as little as possible. Forgive us our hubris, Lord.

The best hope is locally. There’s hope there. We can work with people we know and trust. We can work with other churches locally. We can learn to take personal responsibility for what we have and have not done for our members, our community, and our cities.

Notes

17:25 Bruce talks about LA Unity Plan

says that folks were concerned that LA was about to take over and he could see why they felt that way.
Of course, naming himself as the new Kip would be an alarming thing.

18:53 – Ephesians 4, embodiment of unity plan
Be completely humble, patient, every effort to keep the unity of peace
Concept of unity is dear in the churches, mentions John 17
20:30 Bruce says that our unity will show the world that we are from God

21:42 – Page 3, Humility
Compares UP to Tower of Babel

23:17 – Went over dozens of proposals

24:30 – What role does humility has in someone becoming a Christian? First time you had been that humble. It enabled God to work. As a church we lost our humility, particularly amongst the leaders.
Needed to respect each other more and not compete with each other. Greatest sin of the LA Church, we didn’t respect other leaderships enough.

27:18 – Contrasts ICoC look for other churches vs. what he grew up with in the mainline CoCs. Talks about overcorrections.

28:48 – Shared Beliefs
30:00 – What do we believe as a family of churches? Nothing wrong with questioning everything, we need to ‘come in for a landing’

30:34 – Written because others have said, “I didn’t think we believed that anymore.”

32:00 – Americans cherish their freedoms, we need to think about others, not just ourselves.

33:25 – The UP is done because of love, the ICoC did not do that enough.

34:00 – expectation that everyone is totally committed to God. Analogy to marriage as each one totally committed to the spouse. This message is not
expected outsides of our fellowship. Bruce doesn’t know where it is taught. (Has he looked?)

35:30 – dating only Christians. Saying you’re a Christian, not the same as being one. Doesn’t even pertain to those that have been baptized.
Repentance needs to be preached.

36:35 – Church community.

37:18 – Discipling relationships philosophy based on Scripture. says because there is lots of divorce, one doesn’t eliminate marriage.

38:18 – Churches supporting women.
39:20 – Women should study with, disciple, and lead other women. It is not good for men to do these things.

39:40 – Biblical pattern that women teach women

40:00 – Not enough respect given to local leadership. Decisions made about ministers and leaders where the local leadership was not even considered.
They need to be regarded, at the same time, it needs to be understood that we need each other. Not every church can have the kind of leadership that
other churches have.

41:25 – No putting down other churches or critiquing in public.

41:54 – Mature conflict resolution. Hyperautonomy prevented working through an impasse. We matured in marriages because of outside influence.
Learn from other groups, good and bad. No connection, conflict goes unresolved and churches split. implies that the number of CoCs in a city are due to a split.

43:35 – Course corrections:
44:36 – Will make adjustments as we go along.

44:57 – Independence, no. Interdependence, yes.

46:00 – Isn’t autonomy more biblical? Addressed in Hyper-Autonomy article.

46:05 – It’s relationships, not just shared beliefs.

47:13 – We are corrected the overcorrections. Contemporary religion overemphasizes experience and other things.

47:57 – If we don’t define who we are, the source of our definition will come from elsewhere.

48:02 – Regional Cooperation and Partnership

49:00 – church in NT refers to Church Universal most of the time in the NT

50:48 – Refers to outside help between congregations.

51:35 – Bruce came because he wanted to say, “we need you!” (Does not signing mean to him “I don’t need you?”)

52:39 – Want to see more campus ministries planted so that our kids can go places where there are strong campus ministries.

53:56 – recommended groups
Changed from printed form

54:37 – Representatives. Outside of the select few. In Va. Beach, regions sent reps. 65-70 met together and talked about conferences and needs.

55:40 – Concluding Vision. (Trained by discipline, Heb)

58:06 – Mission and maturity are of equal importance. Lack of numerical growth is not a sign of maturity.

58:41 – If we agree to these things, let’s state it publicly.

Questions:

1. Received negative responses to the UP? If you’re focusing on the Bible, what’s the need for the agreement?
The fellowship and unity in the mainline church didn’t happen.
We are just trying to help each other, we are not trying to control each other. Deflected back into the maturity thing, we didn’t allow people to mature.

2. Came from Europe are there any efforts to help them?
Sean Wooten hired to help them. Almost all of the churches there are weak. This is an example of what happens when churches are left to themselves.

3. Regional representatives – concerned on GSLs. Is there going to be a check and balance if we begin to see hierarchal structure return?
Regional reps allows for accountability.
Reps can only serve for two years and they must term-out. The rotation of people should prevent issues.
Certain people because of their experience will naturally have influence.
If anyone tries to return from hierarchy, it will be shut down. Make sure that we don’t read things into certain actions and overreact.

4. What types of things are being done to prevent overdependence on each other?
Bruce saw this coming many years ago. Must teach more about personal responsibility.
Doesn’t mean that we don’t need each other. It’s like children. They need to own mistakes…

In LA, have DPs and new Christians have more mentoring, but evolves into mutual relationship.
Someone needs to be responsible for ‘making it happen’ while looking to mutual helping.
There needs to be structure and organization. Our family has it.

4b. We raise up people so fast very quickly, we leave young leaders hanging. Unqualified people were in wrong roles.
Yes, we need leadership training. Yes, that is an ugly word for some, but we need more training.
Family Group ends up being a nurturing place for many.
Leadership has more to do with gifts than roles. What are a person’s gifts, Romans 12. Cultivate everyone’s gift.

5. Organization, DP. We are going to have specific disciplers again? Can we find our own disciplers?
Local decision.
LA tried – they do it within the family group. Some are people that no one wants to get with, and we need to help, them, too.
Have a blend of both self-directed and assigned.
Mentioned overcorrection again, said that many began to look only to their own needs. Seek first the kingdom.

6. Larger churches, still some leadership structure. Very bitter Christians to lose leadership, took unpaid folks long time to set up staying together.
Lots of churches like this. What are we doing to pull these churches in? Can we afford to send someone there? No one knows about the small congregations
People are moving from these small places.
This is why we wanted to have regional instead of international structure of leadership. Regions should take care of each other. The reaction weakened
more than the past sins, we never would have allowed this to happen in the past. We don’t have a level of leadership that focuses on only regional
groups. Back to the “we need each other, larger and smaller churches. We need each other.” In about 2-5 years, we are all going to need each other.

7. We are weak in helping others in areas of addiction, teens, etc. We’ve lost DPI and educational areas. Will we fall into same things we did before because we don’t know
any better. What is happening with HOPE WW? What are the expectations with helping HOPEWW.

DPI still exists. They are putting out fewer books, much fewer than before.

One of the things that has been damaged is HOPEWW. Met with Bob and Pat Gempel. LA has committed to support Hope, they say that HOPE would have caved without LA.
For every dollar we give, they can get $25 from the governments. We (churches) give unrestricted funds, that turns into restricted funds from other groups.
Asking for $1 per week per member (Assuming 65000 members, that’s 3.38 million dollars). They are selling their building because they are strapped for cash. Questions raised and things said were not accurate.
The accusations snowballed. Have their been challenges? Yes, they handle above board and ethically. Nothing like what has been circulated.

8. Are they going to make it easier for congregations to manage local money?
HOPEWW does things globally. Global projects are supported by them. On the local level, LA setup HOPE LA. Benevolent money given to them and that
is managed locally. HOPEWW cannot redistribute money to all the churches locally. They do not have the support that they need.
Some of us feel like giving to other projects, but we don’t know where the money goes. These are brothers and sisters in Christ. They have low overhead.

9. If not against you, they are for you. We’re not being proactive…

Trying to reach out and answer questions and respond to concerns. We fell that if churches do not get a connection, they will get weaker.
Is that going to affect my attitude toward them? No, you care for what you give birth to.
Will this divide us? Aren’t we divided right now? We are more divided. We need to come together. We need to overcome our fear of repeating the past instead of doing nothing.
We shouldn’t put it writing? Creeds? Why do people hold on to this? No biblical support for stating that we shouldn’t have a creed. There’s something for
putting it in writing, it makes it clear and provides a starting place. How can this divide us if we are already divided?
What will happen to these churches? If there’s not a connection, they will get weaker. I understand the concerns, but I don’t agree that things are great.
He says that that is the underlying assumption.

We are going to make mistakes, but avoid repeating them.

10. What is the difference between a church that signs and a church that doesn’t sign, but still committed to relationships?
We’re asking if you agree with these statements and principles? There’s no place to sign. It’s a statement of public affirmation. “If they affirm it,
then, Amen — then we will do everything we can to work together. We gotta have a starting place.”
If they don’t publicly affirm it, I’d ask them why. Instead of why do it, ask why not do it? What’s holding back leadership
from letting people know that we want connection and that the body is more than just ourselves. This is the essence.
This is getting lost and I don’t know how.

No step of the nine going to congregations before asking for ratifications. face to face is just good for it.

11. (Not really a question)

Pray for LA. Things aren’t perfect. We have challenges.

LA has come on their own nickel. They’ve only asked for us to cooperate.

12. Where do we go from here? (to ABQ leaders)
Get input from you. See where everyone is at. Are there things we haven’t thought about? Put it together and decide what we’re going to do.

Blogged with Flock